nazz
Doubting Thomas
Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,saying: The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe that observe and do"
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Are Muslims right about Paul?
- Thread starter Simplelogic
- Start date
Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,saying: The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat. Therefore whatever they tell you to observe that observe and do"
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Um...who cares? I already said I'm not Orthodox, so it's not like I'm following some list of teachings, anyway.
The rest of that is part speculation and part, 'sorta', and part huh? The huh, is because Jesus supposedly spoke well of the Prophets, that means he did understand the nature of how the written Torah was compiled.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Do you know what Moses' seat was? It was a special place inside every synagogue. When a Rabbi was in Moses' seat, he was ONLY allowed to read from to Torah. No sermon, no adding commentary, they were only allowed to read from the written Torah while in this seat.
1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. Matt 23: 1-4
The Hebrew version of Matthew does not have the word "they" in the text. Instead it has the word (HE) referring to Moses. No, this is not an endorsement of Pharisaic authority. Tell me, why would Yeshua instruct his followers to follow the Pharisees right before he said this:
5But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. 14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! 17Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? 18And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. 19Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? 20Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. 21And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. 22And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: 35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
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Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Yes, he did. And it had nothing to do with any "oral" torah.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You do understand that Torah wasn't always written, yes? And I'm assuming that you also know about the long history of oral tradition/transmission before any of the Torah was written down? And the shameless "borrowing" from the myths of other cultures?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
The Torah was written down after Sinai. Before Sinai they were mainly oral. This is not the same as the Pharisaic "hidden oral torah" concept which you are referring to. The oral traditions contradict the written Torah in many places. These practices have nothing to do with Moses or what he said like the Orthodox claim. Don't worry, I will walk you through this and show you each and every place that they do. I will also prove that Yeshua ONLY followed the written Law of Moses.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Oh! Please! DON'T lead me up that garden path! Oh the horror! The humanity!!! I can't stand the lack of textual responsibility.
Seriously, I wasn't referring to the "double-secret probation Torah." I was referring to the texts. They were oral for a long, long time before they were written down. Oral tradition enjoys a long history in Judaic culture, O Best Beloved. So does textual redaction. Which is what Talmud amounts to.
And BTW: Moses never existed; the Israelites were never in the Sinai in any large numbers.
outhouse
Atheistically
Stop placing unsubstantiated statements from ignorance.
It was not, and it is not even a historical event. It never happened.
Start providing sources to back your claims.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Stop placing unsubstantiated statements from ignorance.
It was not, and it is not even a historical event. It never happened.
Start providing sources to back your claims.
My friend. You are in the "biblical debates" section. This means people "debate" different issues on the Bible. All you seem to be doing is questioning the validity of the Bible. There are many places for you to do this but I don't think this is one of them. I am debating a portion of scripture which is not in line with the rest of the scriptures in my view. My views are consistent with Jews and with Muslims on this issue and I am in no way debating the legitimacy of the Hebrew scriptures. Why would I care to debate Scripture with someone who doesn't believe in it?? I would be happy to debate the historical validity of the Biblical accounts as well as archeological finds which have proven, and continue to prove, the Hebrew Bible.
It wasn't long ago that Atheist were debating the legitimacy of King David's reign. Claiming that there was no archeological proof for it. That is until the many discoveries of this ancient kingdom by the Jewish people in Israel in recent years. These are all arguments from silence. There are many historical figures from many different ancient peoples which have not been confirmed with archeological discoveries.
The burden of proof is not on me to confirm the Bible narrative my friend. You are in the "Biblical debates" section. For people who believe it was a valid account of history. Please spare me your weak intellectual arguments which you cut and paste from wikipedia. Its childish.
Yerda
Veteran Member
There's evidence of a historical David?!
outhouse
Atheistically
And some positions are historical. And others laughable.
Start backing your statements with credible sources
outhouse
Atheistically
outhouse
Atheistically
Wrong again
First of all David may have existed, but he never existed as written. We have a mythological account of him with a POSSIBLE historical core.
outhouse
Atheistically
No where does it say you have to believe in mythology to participate in this section. :slap:
That is there personal problem.
because it factually is not a historical account.
Please spare us your unsubstantiated personal opinion with no credibility at all :slap:
I provide CREDIBLE sources, you provide what looks like another muslim hiding his identity trying to undermine others beliefs.
Why attack credible sources?
Why do you hate education and knowledge?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Wrong again
First of all David may have existed, but he never existed as written. We have a mythological account of him with a POSSIBLE historical core.
You are uninformed. You are also unaware of the recent discoveries in Israel which make you look like an idiot. Keep watching the news bro. The ship is sinking!
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
And some positions are historical. And others laughable.
Start backing your statements with credible sources
Don't need to. This forum believes in the accounts already.
Yerda
Veteran Member
OK. Thanks.
outhouse
Atheistically
This forum is for education and knowledge, faith is not required.
outhouse
Atheistically
I am aware of most every discovery.
You are the one not bringing anything credible to the table.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
This is so sad. Another David??? I guess its the only play you have.
I wonder how you are going to react when you realize that Sodom and Gomorrah have been found (still covered in brimstone!!). Not to mention Mt. Sinai, the Egyptian chariots at the bottom of the Red sea, the Ark of Noah or even the most recent discovery. You will have to wait for that one!
O yeah, there is a human femor bone in Texas which was found in the Euphrates rivers. It belongs to a man who was over 14 ft tall. Hey... thats weird, didn't the Bible say something about giants??