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Are Muslims right about Paul?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yeshua had many disciples but ONLY 12 apostles. Every church father agreed that only the 12 were apostles and their offices died with them. There was never a 13th or a 14th.
Gee... seems to me that Jesus sent out 70 (or 71, depending on which version you like), for that's what "apostle" means -- one who is sent.

[edit]

My apologies, some sources say 72 -- not 71. But my point stands.
 
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Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
That is incorrect.Paul never learned from other disciples or Apostles.He was a pharisee and had knowledge of God.Paul preached about Jesus by way of holy spirit.He received a revelation from Jesus Christ directly in that vision on the road to Damascus.

Philippians 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born from Hebrews; regarding law, a Pharisee;

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are in Eph′e·sus and are faithful in union with Christ Jesus:

Matt 24: 23-27

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Matt. 24: 5)
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Yeshua says not to listen to people who say they meet him in the desert. He says that when he returns everyone will see him.

You have another problem because Paul was the only one to validate his personal revelation. It takes 2 or 3 to make a witness valid and all we have is Paul's word.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
-Loving your enemies is talking about religious enemies. Not evil people who are trying to kill innocent people. There are many prophecies about Yeshua's return and he is always fighting against evil people.

-Always forgiving is a bit out of context too. We are required to forgive someone who REPENTS and asks us for forgiveness. Not everyone.

-Turning the other cheek is about having patience with others and not resorting to violence quickly. Surely violence is completely condoned when innocent lives are at stake. The whole Torah confirms this, which Yeshua taught.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
-Loving your enemies is talking about religious enemies. Not evil people who are trying to kill innocent people. There are many prophecies about Yeshua's return and he is always fighting against evil people.

-Always forgiving is a bit out of context too. We are required to forgive someone who REPENTS and asks us for forgiveness. Not everyone.

-Turning the other cheek is about having patience with others and not resorting to violence quickly. Surely violence is completely condoned when innocent lives are at stake. The whole Torah confirms this, which Yeshua taught.

Well, of course you can interpret these any way you like to make them easier

;)
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I love how every here keeps pretending they can speak for Jew's or Judaism by parroting Orthodox opinions of the oral Torah which goes all the way back to Moses. Just because you guys are going on website like judiasm101 does not mean you know anything about Judaism. The oral Torah was rejected by many sects of Judaism so to make claims like it is not "correct Judaism" can only mean you are basing your concept of Judaism on merely Orthodox concepts.

No, it's the Judaic tradition, that's why I put it thusly. If it was the 'Orthodox' position specifically I would state as such.
 
Matt 24: 23-27

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Matt. 24: 5)
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
25 Behold, I have told you beforehand.
26 If therefore they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the wilderness; go not forth: Behold, he is in the inner chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west; so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Yeshua says not to listen to people who say they meet him in the desert. He says that when he returns everyone will see him.

You have another problem because Paul was the only one to validate his personal revelation. It takes 2 or 3 to make a witness valid and all we have is Paul's word.
Again you misunderstand.

When Christ would return in an invisible presence he would not come as a man on earth. Therefore Christians should not look for him “in the wilderness,” so that they could train with him in some out-of-the-way place for a revolution. Nor would he be in some secret “inner chambers,” where he could conspire against world governments with his followers. No, his presence was to be like lightning, not in its being instantaneous and unexpected, but in its being seen over a wide area, in the open, for everyone to behold. (Luke 17:24; compare Psalm 97:4.) His followers would not keep their knowledge of his invisible presence secret, but would give it widespread proclamation.—Matt. 10:26, 27.

The “chosen ones,” Jesus said, would not be deceived and disappointed by false Christs. They are symbolically like “eagles” in having sharp spiritual insight. As an eagle knows where the carcass on which he is to feed is to be found, so the farsighted “chosen ones” would gather together to the looked-for Messiah, Jesus, to feed on the spiritual food at the right Messianic place, because they would discern the true Christ.—Luke 17:37.

WOL


You also have to remember,those who followed Jesus Christ knew that the destruction of Jerusalem had to take place first.This happened in 70 C.E.

Jesus gave these warnings, which had an application, first, to Jerusalem with her people, and then to Christians during the centuries after Jerusalem’s destruction. Following this warning he used the expression “immediately after the tribulation of those days.” (Matt. 24:29) This expression constituted a division, timewise. What he said from this point on applied only in one sense, namely, in modern times, not to Jerusalem back there. How can this be properly said?

WOL



Another thing

You mentioned there would need to be 2 or 3 witnesses to confirm Paul's story.There were those men who saw the light when Paul was riding to Damascus.Ananias is also a witness.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
According to who?

You don't need to have someone explain this idea, it's the traditional way that written Torah was compiled in the first place. That's the point I'm making, saying 'only written Torah is valid' is actually contradictory, it doesn't make sense.
But, whatever, if you want to believe that.
 

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
You don't need to have someone explain this idea, it's the traditional way that written Torah was compiled in the first place. That's the point I'm making, saying 'only written Torah is valid' is actually contradictory, it doesn't make sense.
But, whatever, if you want to believe that.

There are many Jews who don't believe in a hidden "oral Torah" which dates back to Moses. Yes, you are unknowingly parroting Orthodox dogma. They have to teach others that it goes back to Moses or else they would loose all authority. If the law of Moses is perfect as it is, then all the Orthodox are out of a job. This is why they hated Yeshua when he was on the planet. He challenged the pillars to their entire religion and exposed their "oral Torah".
 
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