Are Muslims right about Paul?

[Simplelogic]

I really do not wish to get into a long debate.I was merely answering your questions

Ok. Thanks for presenting your opinion. I think you have a number of things wrong with Paul. He did preach the concept of "faith alone" in most of his letters.

Romans 3:28 ("man is justified by faith apart from observing the law").
Romans 4:5 ("To the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness").
Gal. 5:4 ("You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace").
Romans 7:6 ("Now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in a new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code").
Gal. 2:16 ("A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, because by observing the law no one will be justified").
Ephesians 2:8-9 ("For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.")

James was definitely arguing this logic and the link I presented demonstrates that clearly.

You said- "So you can clearly see that Peter and Barnabas were both in the wrong and were corrected in front of everyone by Paul.

Paul did not hate them.He thought highly of them.That is why Paul corrected his brothers.


Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised."

I never said Paul hated them. I said Paul spoke negatively about the ones who were commission by Yeshua himself to take his message to the nations (plural).

The logic that Paul was commissioned to the Gentiles is Paul's own invention and completely dismisses the words of Yeshua:

but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." Acts 1:8

Peter dragged his feet on this commissioning and God himself had to give him a dream to remind him to go to the gentiles.

 

[Desert Snake]

Why not counter my argument?

Your 'argument' is relying on a lot assumptions your position takes that aren't substantiated. You didn't refute my comments, anyway, so I'm not sure what thread you're reading.

 

[Simplelogic]

Something you seem to know very little about.


Why are you here? Apologetic bias is not what this is about, and I will remind you proselytizing is against the rules.

And what religion would you say am I converting people to?

 

[Simplelogic]

The topic is about whether Muslims are right about Paul. I am defending this contention and I believe Yeshua himself would agree with the Muslim's on this point.

 

[outhouse]

. I am defending this contention and I believe Yeshua himself would agree with the Muslim's on this point.

You don't have a clue what Isho/Jesus might agree with.


Your blindly making comparisons from epistles to gospels theology.

The topic is about whether Muslims are right about Paul

How would they KNOW anything about a man 700 ish years earlier?


Why does not one credible historian in the whole world use that book for any aspect in history for Jesus?

 

[sojourner]

And what religion would you say am I converting people to?

What religion would you say you're converting people to?

 

[sojourner]

The topic is about whether Muslims are right about Paul. I am defending this contention and I believe Yeshua himself would agree with the Muslim's on this point.

You're "defense" appears to be mainly smoke and mirrors.

 

[Simplelogic]

Its funny to see just how many people come to the rescue of Paul. Paul was not one of the 12 apostles and yet he is esteemed as the preeminent apostle amongst Christianity. I guess if you take Paul at his word you have to believe it:

Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. 2 Cor 11:5

Yet, if he was just as great as the 12 apostles, why doesn't Yeshua mention him in his revelation?

10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21: 10-14

I guess he forgot.

 

[Nada]

Ok. Thanks for presenting your opinion. I think you have a number of things wrong with Paul. He did preach the concept of "faith alone" in most of his letters.

Romans 3:28 ("man is justified by faith apart from observing the law").
Romans 4:5 ("To the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness").
Gal. 5:4 ("You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace").
Romans 7:6 ("Now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in a new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code").
Gal. 2:16 ("A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, because by observing the law no one will be justified").
Ephesians 2:8-9 ("For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.")

James was definitely arguing this logic and the link I presented demonstrates that clearly.

You said- "So you can clearly see that Peter and Barnabas were both in the wrong and were corrected in front of everyone by Paul.

Paul did not hate them.He thought highly of them.That is why Paul corrected his brothers.


Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised."

I never said Paul hated them. I said Paul spoke negatively about the ones who were commission by Yeshua himself to take his message to the nations (plural).

The logic that Paul was commissioned to the Gentiles is Paul's own invention and completely dismisses the words of Yeshua:

but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." Acts 1:8

Peter dragged his feet on this commissioning and God himself had to give him a dream to remind him to go to the gentiles.

No problem brother I will respectfully answer your questions and respond to your statements.

I see that you are misunderstanding what Paul speaks of.What Paul is speaking of,specifically in Romans 3,is that the Ancient Jews, under Mosaic law, upheld those laws, and this was by works.

When Jesus came to redeem us ,and take away Adamic sin,he did this once.It was not just for Jews but for all of mankind.The Jew and the Gentile.Old Mosaic laws such as circumcision,Kosher laws and Giving up animal sacrifices for atonement etc...were no longer needed.It is by faith.But!,faith without works is dead.

“Faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.”—James 2:17.

What this speaks of is once you have come to have an accurate knowledge of the truth,they must become baptized,and then, one must preach the good news about the Kingdom of God to the entire inhabited earth.To all of mankind.One must keep God's laws, and do what God commands.One cannot merely come to know God and just wait on Him.True Christians must do their part and proclaim God's Word to all of mankind until Jesus' return.

This is all according to the holy scriptures.

 

[sojourner]

Its funny to see just how many people come to the rescue of Paul. Paul was not one of the 12 apostles and yet he is esteemed as the preeminent apostle amongst Christianity. I guess if you take Paul at his word you have to believe it:

Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. 2 Cor 11:5

Yet, if he was just as great as the 12 apostles, why doesn't Yeshua mention him in his revelation?

10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21: 10-14

I guess he forgot.

It's funny to see just how little some folks actually know about the texts they purport to use to defend their "arguments."

"Jesus' Revelation," indeed! It's John's Revelation. Biased apologetics doesn't wash here.

 

[Nada]

Its funny to see just how many people come to the rescue of Paul. Paul was not one of the 12 apostles and yet he is esteemed as the preeminent apostle amongst Christianity. I guess if you take Paul at his word you have to believe it:

Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. 2 Cor 11:5

Yet, if he was just as great as the 12 apostles, why doesn't Yeshua mention him in his revelation?

10And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21: 10-14

I guess he forgot.

No,Paul was not one of the original Apostles.He was in fact an Apostle of Jesus Christ.He was a Roman citizen,a Pharisee,specifically chosen to do God's will.He was an example that no matter what you do,God has mercy,and chooses who He wants.Paul went on to write 14 of the most important writings in the NT.More than any other writer.To not take Paul at his word would be to deny 14 important writings in the NT.This would render it all null and void.

No.Jesus did not forget to mention Paul.Jesus does not specifically mention Paul in Revelation, but Jesus does not mention others as well.

You have to remember that John was referred to as the one Jesus loved.
John 13:23 One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him.

 

[Simplelogic]

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

Here Paul is about to make his case that all are under sin. In order to do it he takes over six different passages from the Tanakh and rips them out of context. Each one of these OT texts confirms the fact that some men are righteous and some men are not.

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;

14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,

16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,

17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”

18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”

Once again, this passage is NOT one piece of scripture but over six completely different passages from the Psalms and Isaiah. I recommend going back and reading these verses in context for yourself

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

After building the false case that "no man is righteous", he then piggy backs on this concept and give us a reason for why the Torah was given…namely to make all men guilty before God!! This is drastically different from God's reason for He gave it:

"Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that (for this purpose) it might be well with them and with their children forever!" Deuteronomy 5:29

"And the Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that (for this purpose) He might preserve us alive, as it is this day. Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before the Lord our God, as He has commanded us." Deuteronomy 6:24,25


Justification by Faith

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[outhouse]

Its funny to see just how many people come to the rescue of Paul. Paul was not one of the 12 apostles and yet he is esteemed as the preeminent apostle amongst Christianity. I guess if you take Paul at his word you have to believe it:

.

It is much better then some worthless muslim plagiarized view that used the gospels as its only source, then perverted the gospel theology.

99.9% of the time hatred of Paul is due to ignorance.


I hated him too for a long time. Education cleared that right up.


You have no idea how this movement started or progressed, and your so busy proselytizing you could care less about learning more on how the movement evolved. :slap:

 

[Simplelogic]

No,Paul was not one of the original Apostles.He was in fact an Apostle of Jesus Christ.He was a Roman citizen,a Pharisee,specifically chosen to do God's will.He was an example that no matter what you do,God has mercy,and chooses who He wants.Paul went on to write 14 of the most important writings in the NT.More than any other writer.To not take Paul at his word would be to deny 14 important writings in the NT.This would render it all null and void.

No.Jesus did not forget to mention Paul.Jesus does not specifically mention Paul in Revelation, but Jesus does not mention others as well.

You have to remember that John was referred to as the one Jesus loved.
John 13:23 One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him.

Yeshua had many disciples but ONLY 12 apostles. Every church father agreed that only the 12 were apostles and their offices died with them. There was never a 13th or a 14th.

 

[Simplelogic]

It is much better then some worthless muslim plagiarized view that used the gospels as its only source, then perverted the gospel theology.

99.9% of the time hatred of Paul is due to ignorance.


I hated him too for a long time. Education cleared that right up.


You have no idea how this movement started or progressed, and your so busy proselytizing you could care less about learning more on how the movement evolved. :slap:

Please enlighten me.

 

[outhouse]

To hate Paul is to hate Christians, because Paul did not start Christianity nor invent it.


Paul joined the movement in the diaspora that was moving forward with or without Paul.


While alive, Paul changed very little in the movement.


OP fails to understand when Jesus died, the Jewish movement in Galilee also died.

 

[outhouse]

ONLY 12 apostles.

:biglaugh:

Unsubstantiated.


By our best guess he had his inner circle at best traveling with him.

The gospels for the most part deal or discuss only these men, with just brief mentions of the others.


The 12 is also more them likely rhetorical mythology to match the 12 tribes.

 

[Nada]

Yeshua had many disciples but ONLY 12 apostles. Every church father agreed that only the 12 were apostles and their offices died with them. There was never a 13th or a 14th.

That is incorrect.Paul never learned from other disciples or Apostles.He was a pharisee and had knowledge of God.Paul preached about Jesus by way of holy spirit.He received a revelation from Jesus Christ directly in that vision on the road to Damascus.

Philippians 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born from Hebrews; regarding law, a Pharisee;

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are in Eph′e·sus and are faithful in union with Christ Jesus:

 

[Simplelogic]

It's funny to see just how little some folks actually know about the texts they purport to use to defend their "arguments."

"Jesus' Revelation," indeed! It's John's Revelation. Biased apologetics doesn't wash here.

Yes I do believe Yeshua gave the revelation. Sorry if that bothers you.

 

[nazz]

Yes. I do.

No offense but I don't believe you. It's not possible. There are no perfect people.