Are Muslims right about Paul?

[sojourner]

Ok so it actually seems now from reading other posts that you knowingly are going against traditional Judaic belief and yet still propose the strict adherence to written Torah, in which case I think I'm out of this discussion, because that is neither correct Judaism or correct Xianity.

No. It's not. Sounds like some kind of fundamental splinter group of some kind.

 

[Simplelogic]

Jesus didn't know Paul. You believe wrong. James and Paul reached consensus at the Council of Jerusalem.

Jesus didn't know Paul, nor did Paul know Jesus. I never claimed either of them knew each other. Yeshua prophesied about Paul coming to lead his flock astray. I have highlighted some of these prophesies already. You think James agreed with Paul still?? Maybe keep reading the book of Acts were James forces Paul to offer animal sacrifices just to see if he was Torah observant. Paul did act like a Jew early on but he only did it to deceive. Paul admits this with his own mouth:

19For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
1 Cor 9: 19-21

Paul admits here that he was a chameleon who blended in with whatever group he was around, in order to make converts. Something you would never hear Yeshua say.

 

[Simplelogic]

No. It's not. Sounds like some kind of fundamental splinter group of some kind.

Do you see what my religion tag is?? Does it say Judaism?? NO. It says Torah. Pharisees and Orthodox have taught against the Torah and replaced it with man made commandments which is forbidden in the Torah. Yeshua railed against the Pharisees for such actions and my beliefs are consistent with those of Yeshua.

 

[sojourner]

7The law (Torah) of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul;
The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. Psalm 19:7

Oh, well there's proof, Boys and Girls! The bible is perfect because the bible says it's perfect.

Wonderful example of circular reasoning, Old Boy.

 

[sojourner]

I love how every here keeps pretending they can speak for Jew's or Judaism by parroting Orthodox opinions of the oral Torah which goes all the way back to Moses.

I love how you keep pretending that Moses was an actual, historic person.

 

[Nada]

-I can prove that Paul was speaking against James and his followers (the circumcision party).

-Paul also spoke negatively against Peter and John in Galatians

-James wrote his letter as a direct counter to Paul's doctrines:
James versus Paul

-I can prove that Yeshua commends the Ephesian church (in Asia) for rejecting a man who claimed to be an apostle and was NOT. Paul later admits that "all Asia had rejected" him.

-Yeshua said do not listen to those who say "he is in the wilderness". Yeshus continues and says that when he returns EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM. Paul claimed he met Yeshua (in the wilderness) on the road to damascus! The very thing Yeshua said false prophets would do!

-Yeshua also used the term "ravening wolves" when he warned his twelve about false prophets who would come in and steel the sheep.

James was not contradicting Paul by saying that one could earn salvation by works. Rather, he accepts faith as the basis for salvation but points out that there cannot be genuine faith that does not produce good works. This is in harmony with Paul’s description of the fruitage of the spirit, at Galatians 5:22-24, and his counsel to put on the new personality, at Ephesians 4:22-24 and Colossians 3:5-10, as well as his admonition to do good and share with others, at Hebrews 13:16.

James, Letter of — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


In the case of Peter, and John called Mark,Paul was correcting them.They were in the wrong and Paul pointed it out as he should have.

Peter, while in Antioch, stood opposed to the uncircumcised Gentiles.Peter, and Barnabas,clearly discriminated against them.Paul confronted Peter and set him straight.Peter and Paul were both servants of the one true God, and slaves of Jesus Christ.This type of behavior displayed by Peter was unfitting for an apostle.

Galatians 2:11-13. 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.… 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.…

So you can clearly see that Peter and Barnabas were both in the wrong and were corrected in front of everyone by Paul.

Paul did not hate them.He thought highly of them.That is why Paul corrected his brothers.


Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.


In the case of the Ephesians,Paul was not rejected by all because he was a false prophet.If you read Acts 19 it explains that Paul left them because they were speaking injuriously about the way.

9 But when some stubbornly refused to believe, speaking injuriously about The Way before the crowd, he withdrew from them and separated the disciples from them, giving talks daily in the school auditorium of Ty·ran′nus. 10 This went on for two years, so that all those living in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.


11 And God kept performing extraordinary powerful works through the hands of Paul,


13 But some of the Jews who traveled around casting out demons also tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had wicked spirits; they would say: “I solemnly charge you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Now there were seven sons of a Jewish chief priest named Sce′va doing this. 15 But in answer the wicked spirit said to them: “I know Jesus and I am acquainted with Paul; but who are you?”[ 16 At that the man with the wicked spirit leaped on them, overpowered them one after the other, and prevailed against them, so that they fled naked and wounded out of that house. 17 This became known to all, both the Jews and the Greeks who lived in Eph′e·sus; and fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus went on being magnified.

In Ephesus much magic and worship to false gods was taking place.In the surrounding areas as well.



23 At that time quite a disturbance arose concerning The Way. 24 For a man named De·me′tri·us, a silversmith who made silver shrines of Ar′te·mis, brought considerable profit to the craftsmen. 25 He gathered them and others who worked at such things and said: “Men, you well know that from this business comes our prosperity. 26 Now you see and hear how, not only in Eph′e·sus but in nearly all the province of Asia, this Paul has persuaded a considerable crowd and turned them to another opinion, saying that the gods made by hands are not really gods. 27 Moreover, the danger exists not only that this business of ours will come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Ar′te·mis will be viewed as nothing, and she who is worshipped in the whole province of Asia and the inhabited earth will be deprived of her magnificence.” 28 Hearing this and becoming full of anger, the men began crying out: “Great is Ar′te·mis of the E·phe′sians!”


As for the case with Paul seeing Jesus in the wilderness.It was a vision.It was not physically Jesus.It was a light notice too that only Paul(Saul) could understand what was being said.It mentions that those around Paul could hear a voice but only Paul understood.


Acts 9:3-8
3 Now as he was traveling and getting near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 He asked: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7 Now the men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing, indeed, the sound of a voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul then got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.

Notice too that Ananias received a vision.It was not physically Jesus.


Acts 9:10,12. 10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord."12and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight."…

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."…

Paul was no false prophet.Just a misunderstood one.

 

[sojourner]

Last ditch effort to discredit someone who is running circles around 5 different people at once. Why not counter my argument?

Because it's not worth my time. The argument's paper-thin and the "evidence" is
circumstantial at best. I don't have to discredit you. You did a fine job of that all by yourself.

The reason you're running [around] 5 different people at once, is that you're attempting to plug all the holes in your little dike of an argument that we've been punching into it.

 

[sojourner]

Jesus didn't know Paul, nor did Paul know Jesus. I never claimed either of them knew each other.

Then I guess he couldn't disagree with him, eh?

Yeshua prophesied about Paul coming to lead his flock astray.

You don't know that. You're doing a perfect job of eisegeting the text.

Paul admits here that he was a chameleon who blended in with whatever group he was around, in order to make converts. Something you would never hear Yeshua say.

Since Jesus was God Incarnate, I'd have to say that Jesus did, in fact, blend in perfectly with humanity (the group he was around) in order to make converts.

 

[sojourner]

Do you see what my religion tag is?? Does it say Judaism?? NO. It says Torah. Pharisees and Orthodox have taught against the Torah and replaced it with man made commandments which is forbidden in the Torah. Yeshua railed against the Pharisees for such actions and my beliefs are consistent with those of Yeshua.

Precisely. A fundamental splinter group. All fundamental splinter groups defame the orthodox groups from which they spring, claiming that they, alone, have the real truth.



I think you've been "outed."

 

[Simplelogic]

Oh, well there's proof, Boys and Girls! The bible is perfect because the bible says it's perfect.

Wonderful example of circular reasoning, Old Boy.

Well, smart guy. You are in a "Biblical" discussion forum. This discussion is for those who believe in the words of the Tanakh. Why not start your own thread to try to discredit the Torah.

 

[Simplelogic]

James was not contradicting Paul by saying that one could earn salvation by works. Rather, he accepts faith as the basis for salvation but points out that there cannot be genuine faith that does not produce good works. This is in harmony with Paul’s description of the fruitage of the spirit, at Galatians 5:22-24, and his counsel to put on the new personality, at Ephesians 4:22-24 and Colossians 3:5-10, as well as his admonition to do good and share with others, at Hebrews 13:16.

James, Letter of — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


In the case of Peter, and John called Mark,Paul was correcting them.They were in the wrong and Paul pointed it out as he should have.

Peter, while in Antioch, stood opposed to the uncircumcised Gentiles.Peter, and Barnabas,clearly discriminated against them.Paul confronted Peter and set him straight.Peter and Paul were both servants of the one true God, and slaves of Jesus Christ.This type of behavior displayed by Peter was unfitting for an apostle.

Galatians 2:11-13. 11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision.… 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.…

So you can clearly see that Peter and Barnabas were both in the wrong and were corrected in front of everyone by Paul.

Paul did not hate them.He thought highly of them.That is why Paul corrected his brothers.


Galatians 2:9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.


In the case of the Ephesians,Paul was not rejected by all because he was a false prophet.If you read Acts 19 it explains that Paul left them because they were speaking injuriously about the way.

9 But when some stubbornly refused to believe, speaking injuriously about The Way before the crowd, he withdrew from them and separated the disciples from them, giving talks daily in the school auditorium of Ty·ran′nus. 10 This went on for two years, so that all those living in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.


11 And God kept performing extraordinary powerful works through the hands of Paul,


13 But some of the Jews who traveled around casting out demons also tried to use the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had wicked spirits; they would say: “I solemnly charge you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Now there were seven sons of a Jewish chief priest named Sce′va doing this. 15 But in answer the wicked spirit said to them: “I know Jesus and I am acquainted with Paul; but who are you?”[ 16 At that the man with the wicked spirit leaped on them, overpowered them one after the other, and prevailed against them, so that they fled naked and wounded out of that house. 17 This became known to all, both the Jews and the Greeks who lived in Eph′e·sus; and fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus went on being magnified.

In Ephesus much magic and worship to false gods was taking place.In the surrounding areas as well.



23 At that time quite a disturbance arose concerning The Way. 24 For a man named De·me′tri·us, a silversmith who made silver shrines of Ar′te·mis, brought considerable profit to the craftsmen. 25 He gathered them and others who worked at such things and said: “Men, you well know that from this business comes our prosperity. 26 Now you see and hear how, not only in Eph′e·sus but in nearly all the province of Asia, this Paul has persuaded a considerable crowd and turned them to another opinion, saying that the gods made by hands are not really gods. 27 Moreover, the danger exists not only that this business of ours will come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Ar′te·mis will be viewed as nothing, and she who is worshipped in the whole province of Asia and the inhabited earth will be deprived of her magnificence.” 28 Hearing this and becoming full of anger, the men began crying out: “Great is Ar′te·mis of the E·phe′sians!”


As for the case with Paul seeing Jesus in the wilderness.It was a vision.It was not physically Jesus.It was a light notice too that only Paul(Saul) could understand what was being said.It mentions that those around Paul could hear a voice but only Paul understood.


Acts 9:3-8
3 Now as he was traveling and getting near Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him, 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him: “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 He asked: “Who are you, Lord?” He said: “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7 Now the men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing, indeed, the sound of a voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul then got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.

Notice too that Ananias received a vision.It was not physically Jesus.


Acts 9:10,12. 10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, "Ananias." And he said, "Here I am, Lord."12and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight."…

17 So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."…

Paul was no false prophet.Just a misunderstood one.

Are you willing to do a formal debate with me on Paul's letters. Especially Galatians and Romans. We can go verse by verse together to see who has Paul in context and who doesn't.

 

[sojourner]

Well, smart guy. You are in a "Biblical" discussion forum. This discussion is for those who believe in the words of the Tanakh. Why not start your own thread to try to discredit the Torah.

I've been here for nearly 9 years. I think I know what the forum is "all about."

I'm not here to discredit Torah. I'm here to discredit your non-argument.





Smart Guy.

 

[Nada]

Are you willing to do a formal debate with me on Paul's letters. Especially Galatians and Romans. We can go verse by verse together to see who has Paul in context and who doesn't.

Wow! You already read all I sent you?

 

[Simplelogic]

Precisely. A fundamental splinter group. All fundamental splinter groups defame the orthodox groups from which they spring, claiming that they, alone, have the real truth.



I think you've been "outed."

I never claimed I had the only truth. You have nothing to say about my arguments though. I still believe that Muslims were right concerning Paul. They are much closer to Yeshua's perspective then gentile Christians are.

 

[Nada]

Are you willing to do a formal debate with me on Paul's letters. Especially Galatians and Romans. We can go verse by verse together to see who has Paul in context and who doesn't.

I really do not wish to get into a long debate.I was merely answering your questions

 

[sojourner]

I never claimed I had the only truth. You have nothing to say about my arguments though. I still believe that Muslims were right concerning Paul. They are much closer to Yeshua's perspective then gentile Christians are.

You're free to believe what you want. But you haven't yet proved any of those beliefs. the only thing you've managed to do is eisegete texts.

 

[Nada]

I never claimed I had the only truth. You have nothing to say about my arguments though. I still believe that Muslims were right concerning Paul. They are much closer to Yeshua's perspective then gentile Christians are.

I don't believe Muslims are correct about Paul or Jesus.Islam was invented in the 7th century C.E.In the 600's.They think Jesus is a prophet of Allah and that Jesus was not killed, but raised up, by Allah, in to the sky.

 

[outhouse]

I still believe that Muslims were right concerning Paul. .

That is your personal unsubstantiated position, and it will remain that way.

 

[outhouse]

I don't believe Muslims are correct about Paul or Jesus.Islam was invented in the 7th century C.E..

Exactly, their position is 100% worthless historically speaking.

 

[outhouse]

Well, smart guy. You are in a "Biblical" discussion forum..

Something you seem to know very little about.


Why are you here? Apologetic bias is not what this is about, and I will remind you proselytizing is against the rules.