Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
According to who? Can you show me where in the Torah it says anything about a verbal Torah? Pharisaic Jews are the ones who hold the Oral Law as binding. They are two different things my friend.
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Are Muslims right about Paul?
- Thread starter Simplelogic
- Start date
According to who? Can you show me where in the Torah it says anything about a verbal Torah? Pharisaic Jews are the ones who hold the Oral Law as binding. They are two different things my friend.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Orthodox Jews believe that Rabbi's have the authority to make new laws and change Torah commands. The Torah itself, says they can't:
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. Deut 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. Deut 4:2
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
This is why Yeshua was so angry with the Pharisees. Their man made traditions were making the Torah null and void.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Great, but that doesn't make jesus 'right' by default, or even make the entire written Torah binding.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
This is like saying two wrongs make a right. I'm not going to follow the entire Torah regardless, it's not happening, if that's what Jesus really taught, I'm out.
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Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I don't need you to agree with it. My point is that Jesus believed it was. You can do with that what you want.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
What are you talking about? That is not what this means at all.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
So you're saying Paul was straight up lying then? idk this theory is a bit sketchy imo. I think you're making some good points but you're asking us to believe a lot of unproven stuff as well.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I realize that. I am willing to prove each point in time.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I also believe I can prove that Jesus and James (his brother) completely rejected Paul.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Verbal Torah is the method (supposedly) of how one comes to written Torah. This is because Judaic belief in it's correct form allows for additions to traditions. The written Torah literally is from the verbal Torah. The laws of the written Torah are then debated and some are followed, some not.
Nada
#
How is that?
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
I definitely believe that the Torah is a perfect law. Though at first glance it can seem harsh. I have spent considerable amount of time studying all of the parts of the Torah which offended my sense of morality. Issues like:
-The complete destruction of the Canaanites
-Stoning Commands
-Many think the Torah condones rape it does NOT.
-Plural marriages
I now am convinced that every command was designed to STOP EVIL from entering into Israel. No man can follow all the commands in the Torah right now. The Temple has still not returned. But when the Messiah comes, the whole Torah will be valid again. And it is a beautiful law which teaches love to our neighbors while at the same time teaching us to confront evil! With violence if necessary! This concept is horribly lacking in the western consciousness these days. Which is why we don't know what to do with the current evil's present in the world.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
But Paul is actually correct in saying that 'faith' is above law. In Judaism this concept is ideally adhered to, as well. This is why the written Torah is not completely binding, as well.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
If Jesus taught against verbal Torah, he was incorrect.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Great but I'm saying I'm not going to follow the entire written Torah. The revisions I've accepted are legit, and this ironically lol is done through verbal Torah and study of the traditions.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
-I can prove that Paul was speaking against James and his followers (the circumcision party).
-Paul also spoke negatively against Peter and John in Galatians
-James wrote his letter as a direct counter to Paul's doctrines:
James versus Paul
-I can prove that Yeshua commends the Ephesian church (in Asia) for rejecting a man who claimed to be an apostle and was NOT. Paul later admits that "all Asia had rejected" him.
-Yeshua said do not listen to those who say "he is in the wilderness". Yeshus continues and says that when he returns EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM. Paul claimed he met Yeshua (in the wilderness) on the road to damascus! The very thing Yeshua said false prophets would do!
-Yeshua also used the term "ravening wolves" when he warned his twelve about false prophets who would come in and steel the sheep.
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Who is the Benjamite Wolf?
Matt. 7:15 "ravening wolves" are "false prophets"
Matt. 7:15 "ravening wolves" appear as "sheep," i.e., claim to be Christians.
Genesis 49:27
In the latter days, Benjamin shall be a "ravening wolf." Genesis 49:27
This "ravening wolf" from Benjamin's tribe first shall kill its "prey" in the morning.(Saul 'was a murderer from the beginning,' the same as said of Satan.
Genesis 49:27 Later this "ravening wolf" from Benjamin's tribe will "divide the spoil" i.e., plunder and divide its prey. Rom. 11:1 Phil. 3:5
Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin.
Acts 7:58 8:1-3 Paul starts out participating in murders of Christians. 'A murderer from the beginning' Gal. 2:9
Paul later divides the church along Gentile-Jew lines, reserving for himself the right to recruit Gentiles, claiming the Jerusalem church relinquished the Gentile-mission exclusively to Paul. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy.
Ezek. 22:26-32
The "ravening wolves" will come who do "violence to the Law," and who teach the people to "hide their eyes from the Sabbath," and to participate in food sacrificed to demons, etc. These wolves are associated with those who "have false visions" and "divine" lies in the Lord's name. Rom. 14:5; Col. 2:14-16
Paul, a Benjamite, came claiming visions of Jesus, and taught the Sabbath rule was a shadow of things to come, and no one can any longer judge another on failure to keep the Sabbath. 2 Cor. 2:14; Gal. 5:1; Rom. 7:1 et seq.; Rom. 10:4; 2 Cor. 3:7; Gal. 5:1; Col. 2:14-17; Rom.3:27; Rom. 4:15; 2 Cor. 3:9; Gal. 2:16; Gal. 3:21; Col. 2:14.
Paul, a Benjamite, came claiming visions of Jesus, and on that authority taught the Law was abrogated, abolished, done away with, nailed to a cross; it was against us, etc. This same Paul said Jews are released from the Law and if they follow Christ instead, He has set them free from the Law which is death and bondage. (Same lie Satan told Eve). Romans 14:21;1 Corinthians 8:4-13; 1 Cor. 10:19-29; 1 Tim 4:4.
Paul, a Benjamite, came claiming visions of Jesus, and on that authority taught all foods were pure, including meat sacrificed to idols.(Dividing the sheepfold for slaughter).
"He who has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT says to the CHURCHES." (repeated words of Christ at least 8 times in Revelation). The Church at Ephesus had tested those who say they are apostles and found them to be liars. Some of the other churches had participated in 'food sacrificed to idols and fornication.' This can be literal or spiritual. Either way, it's against God and His Holiness, against what the Holy Spirit taught through Jesus and the 12 apostles who had the 'revelation of the mystery.' Those who disobeyed are participating in demon worship. It's not surprising then, to learn that every attribute of Satan is found in ONE man, the Benjamite Wolf Man, the 'Wolf in Sheep's clothing.'
Matt. 7:15 "ravening wolves" are "false prophets"
Matt. 7:15 "ravening wolves" appear as "sheep," i.e., claim to be Christians.
Genesis 49:27
In the latter days, Benjamin shall be a "ravening wolf." Genesis 49:27
This "ravening wolf" from Benjamin's tribe first shall kill its "prey" in the morning.(Saul 'was a murderer from the beginning,' the same as said of Satan.
Genesis 49:27 Later this "ravening wolf" from Benjamin's tribe will "divide the spoil" i.e., plunder and divide its prey. Rom. 11:1 Phil. 3:5
Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin.
Acts 7:58 8:1-3 Paul starts out participating in murders of Christians. 'A murderer from the beginning' Gal. 2:9
Paul later divides the church along Gentile-Jew lines, reserving for himself the right to recruit Gentiles, claiming the Jerusalem church relinquished the Gentile-mission exclusively to Paul. Satan comes to steal, kill and destroy.
Ezek. 22:26-32
The "ravening wolves" will come who do "violence to the Law," and who teach the people to "hide their eyes from the Sabbath," and to participate in food sacrificed to demons, etc. These wolves are associated with those who "have false visions" and "divine" lies in the Lord's name. Rom. 14:5; Col. 2:14-16
Paul, a Benjamite, came claiming visions of Jesus, and taught the Sabbath rule was a shadow of things to come, and no one can any longer judge another on failure to keep the Sabbath. 2 Cor. 2:14; Gal. 5:1; Rom. 7:1 et seq.; Rom. 10:4; 2 Cor. 3:7; Gal. 5:1; Col. 2:14-17; Rom.3:27; Rom. 4:15; 2 Cor. 3:9; Gal. 2:16; Gal. 3:21; Col. 2:14.
Paul, a Benjamite, came claiming visions of Jesus, and on that authority taught the Law was abrogated, abolished, done away with, nailed to a cross; it was against us, etc. This same Paul said Jews are released from the Law and if they follow Christ instead, He has set them free from the Law which is death and bondage. (Same lie Satan told Eve). Romans 14:21;1 Corinthians 8:4-13; 1 Cor. 10:19-29; 1 Tim 4:4.
Paul, a Benjamite, came claiming visions of Jesus, and on that authority taught all foods were pure, including meat sacrificed to idols.(Dividing the sheepfold for slaughter).
"He who has an ear let him hear what the SPIRIT says to the CHURCHES." (repeated words of Christ at least 8 times in Revelation). The Church at Ephesus had tested those who say they are apostles and found them to be liars. Some of the other churches had participated in 'food sacrificed to idols and fornication.' This can be literal or spiritual. Either way, it's against God and His Holiness, against what the Holy Spirit taught through Jesus and the 12 apostles who had the 'revelation of the mystery.' Those who disobeyed are participating in demon worship. It's not surprising then, to learn that every attribute of Satan is found in ONE man, the Benjamite Wolf Man, the 'Wolf in Sheep's clothing.'
Simplelogic
Well-Known Member
Except his Law is perfect and unchanging
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Part of the law is verbal Torah, if Jesus didn't believe in this, He didn't understand the nature of Judaic belief concerning how we get our laws in the first place. That's fine because I believe that everyone is entitled to their own belief, however that is
*'secular' in nature, because it puts written immutable and non-addable law above prophecy etc. This is going against the traditional methodology of the Hebraic religion.
*The concept is secular, doesn't mean the adherents to that idea are 'secular'.