Are Muslims right about Paul?

[sojourner]

Sorry for the delay. The Torah is the first 5 books of your OT. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

Pharisaic Jews of the first century and today believe in the oral laws (Talmud/Mishnah) which have been compiled for centuries. Some Jews believe these oral laws date back to Moses. In the oral law you have many NT items that Yeshua condemned the Pharisees for keeping.

-Hand washing traditions
-Not picking grain on Sabbath
-Not carrying a load on Sabbath
-Not mixing mud on Sabbath
-Washing pots and Jars in a certain way

Christians are largely ignorant to the Law of Moses and have no idea that the things Yeshua came against were not the Torah but man made doctrines and traditions. Yeshua kept every single commandment and even taught others to offer animal sacrifices! He also upheld the stoning commandments in Matthew's gospel. He was 100% Torah compliant in his life and was a model of how we are all suppose to live. I would challenge anyone to show me where Yeshua EVER breaks anything in the law of Moses. Some have tried already but they didn't realize the laws Yeshua was breaking were oral man made traditions…not Torah.

Numbers 19:11. Yet Jesus touched the body of the dead young man.

You'll have to show me where in the bible Jesus taught others to sacrifice animals. And where he upheld stoning commandments.

This is all so fake, because, by the time Jesus was alive, the Talmud and Mishnah were as authoritative as Torah. And all the Law -- even Torah -- is "man made," so you r argument is flimsy at best, and a complete failure at worst.

 

[Pegg]

Adam was given laws. The first being not to eat from the tree of knowledge of Good and evil. He was also given the Sabbath. Where do you get off saying that Adam was in "spiritual darkness" after being cast out of the garden.

would you be able to cite scriptures telling us that Adam observed the Sabbath?

I can't recall it.

If someone is cut off from God...they are in spiritual darkness. Adam and Eve were both expelled from eden and God ceased communicating with them as we can see from the fact that there is no more discussion with Adam after he is expelled...whereas prior, God does speak with Adam on a regular basis in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Pegg]

Ok, lets put on our thinking caps for a second. When YHVH told Adam:

“Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you."

Do you believe that this literally means every plant?? Surely Adam was not going around eating poisonous berries or poison ivy. Hyperbole is used throughout the Scriptures and it needs to be read in the proper context. Surely YHVH was saying that edible plants were to be food for Adam.

I'm sure that Adam knew which of the vegetation was good for food and that which was not.
The fact is he was given all 'green vegetation and seed bearing fruit' for food. There no other type of food such as meat mentioned here, is there?

Now lets move forward to animals:

"Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything." Genesis 9:3

"Everything" is referring to the diet change from only plants to animals and plants! This is "everything" being mentioned. This does NOT mean that Noah was eating every animal. The very fact that he knew which ones were clean and unclean confirms this point. To suggest that these laws only pertained to sacrifices is completely unscriptural. There are numerous clean animals that are never to be used in a sacrifice.

its not unscriptural because the mosaic law came much later... that law stipualated what could be offered in worship as a sacrifice and what could not.

But the instruction given about what a man could eat, has nothing to do with worship. They are two different subjects.

Noah was given permission to eat any type of animal he chose. And we can see today that people in all parts of the world do eat all types of animals. So its quite logical that mankind understood the permission given was about eating.

The directions on what could be used for sacrifices in worship to God was to a different matter....a matter of 'worship' and had nothing to do with eating.

 

[Simplelogic]

Numbers 19:11. Yet Jesus touched the body of the dead young man.

You'll have to show me where in the bible Jesus taught others to sacrifice animals. And where he upheld stoning commandments.

This is all so fake, because, by the time Jesus was alive, the Talmud and Mishnah were as authoritative as Torah. And all the Law -- even Torah -- is "man made," so you r argument is flimsy at best, and a complete failure at worst.

There is much you don't know about 1st century Judaism. The Talmud was considered binding to primarily Pharisaic Jews, not the whole of Judaism. I would look up the term Karaite Jews. There are many Jews today who reject Talmud as well, but they keep the Torah. I'm not "moving any goalposts". You are just lacking in your understand of Judaism, Torah and the Talmud.

Where did Yeshua teach animal sacrifice??

"Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way, First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." Matthew 5:23,24

Many Christians think that Yahshua was referring to monetary gifts. In many Christian churches there is a table near the front of the sanctuary that is called an "altar"... from whence comes the evangelical phrase, "altar call". On this table is placed the congregation's monetary gifts. These gifts are almost always referred to as "offerings". There were no such tables called "altars" at the time Yahshua spoke these words. In Yahshua's day, "altar" meant only one thing... the place on which burnt sacrifices were offered. The monetary gifts were given at a place called "the treasury". See Mark 12:41-44.

Yeshua, even commanded individuals to go and make a specific burnt offering. After healing a man with leprosy, Yahshua told him;

"...go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." Matthew 8:4

This offering is commanded in Leviticus 14:1-32 and consists of numerous animal sacrifices. To those who believe Yahshua is the Messiah, the question is, if in fact burnt offerings were acts of futility in God's eyes, why did Yahshua command this healed leper to offer them?

 

[Simplelogic]

1Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2“Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders(Oral law/Talmud)? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.” 3And He answered and said to them, “Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4“For God said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,’ and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.’ 5“But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,” 6he is not to honor his father or his mother.’ And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7“You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
8‘THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

9‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
Matt:15
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’”

Torah commands in blue

Oral law commands in red

 

[Simplelogic]

would you be able to cite scriptures telling us that Adam observed the Sabbath?

I can't recall it.

If someone is cut off from God...they are in spiritual darkness. Adam and Eve were both expelled from eden and God ceased communicating with them as we can see from the fact that there is no more discussion with Adam after he is expelled...whereas prior, God does speak with Adam on a regular basis in the Garden of Eden.

1Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. Genesis 2: 1-3

The Hebrew word translated "sanctified" in Genesis 2:3 and "hallowed" in Exodus 20:11 is qadash, a word meaning "to hallow, to pronounce holy, to consecrate, to set apart for holy use." (1)

 

[Simplelogic]

Do you obey everything recorded in the Sermon on the Mount 24/7?

Yes. I do.

 

[sojourner]

There is much you don't know about 1st century Judaism. The Talmud was considered binding to primarily Pharisaic Jews, not the whole of Judaism. I would look up the term Karaite Jews. There are many Jews today who reject Talmud as well, but they keep the Torah. I'm not "moving any goalposts". You are just lacking in your understand of Judaism, Torah and the Talmud.

Where did Yeshua teach animal sacrifice??

"Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way, First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." Matthew 5:23,24

Many Christians think that Yahshua was referring to monetary gifts. In many Christian churches there is a table near the front of the sanctuary that is called an "altar"... from whence comes the evangelical phrase, "altar call". On this table is placed the congregation's monetary gifts. These gifts are almost always referred to as "offerings". There were no such tables called "altars" at the time Yahshua spoke these words. In Yahshua's day, "altar" meant only one thing... the place on which burnt sacrifices were offered. The monetary gifts were given at a place called "the treasury". See Mark 12:41-44.

Yeshua, even commanded individuals to go and make a specific burnt offering. After healing a man with leprosy, Yahshua told him;

"...go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." Matthew 8:4

This offering is commanded in Leviticus 14:1-32 and consists of numerous animal sacrifices. To those who believe Yahshua is the Messiah, the question is, if in fact burnt offerings were acts of futility in God's eyes, why did Yahshua command this healed leper to offer them?

1) You have no idea who I am, or what I do or do not know about Judaism, religion, spirituality, or the bible.

2) The offerings made for leprosy purification were a lamb (which was cooked and eaten), a live bird (which was set free), and a log of oil. Unless you're prepared to get all bent out of shape at the current beef industry, I wouldn't get my panties in too much of a twist here.

The offering mentioned in Matthew 5, the korban, Nolland feels, is simply a turn of phrase used by Matthew, since, by the time of writing, the korban would not have been in use (since the altar where the korban was offered had been destroyed.

You didn't speak about the stoning or the touching of bodies.

 

[Simplelogic]

Numbers 19:11. Yet Jesus touched the body of the dead young man.

11‘The one who touches the corpse of any person shall be unclean for seven days. 12‘That one shall purify himself from uncleanness with the water on the third day and on the seventh day, and then he will be clean; but if he does not purify himself on the third day and on the seventh day, he will not be clean. Num 19:11-2

I don't think you understand the way sin works in the Torah. All humans became "unclean" at some point in time. It doesn't mean their hearts "rebelled" against God or anything. It was inevitable that we would have to touch a dead body or animal at times. Being made unclean is not a "sin" in the "christian" sense. It means you have to wash yourself to be considered clean (physically) again. These laws are for physical cleanliness and I am completely sure that if Yeshua was pronounced unclean, he would follow the Torah's commands on how to purify himself like any other Torah practicing Jew.

 

[Simplelogic]

I'm sure that Adam knew which of the vegetation was good for food and that which was not.
The fact is he was given all 'green vegetation and seed bearing fruit' for food. There no other type of food such as meat mentioned here, is there?




its not unscriptural because the mosaic law came much later... that law stipualated what could be offered in worship as a sacrifice and what could not.

But the instruction given about what a man could eat, has nothing to do with worship. They are two different subjects.

Noah was given permission to eat any type of animal he chose. And we can see today that people in all parts of the world do eat all types of animals. So its quite logical that mankind understood the permission given was about eating.

The directions on what could be used for sacrifices in worship to God was to a different matter....a matter of 'worship' and had nothing to do with eating.

I think its obvious to anyone else reading that you have been beaten on this topic. Not even sure what your point is anymore.

 

[Simplelogic]

1) You have no idea who I am, or what I do or do not know about Judaism, religion, spirituality, or the bible.

2) The offerings made for leprosy purification were a lamb (which was cooked and eaten), a live bird (which was set free), and a log of oil. Unless you're prepared to get all bent out of shape at the current beef industry, I wouldn't get my panties in too much of a twist here.

The offering mentioned in Matthew 5, the korban, Nolland feels, is simply a turn of phrase used by Matthew, since, by the time of writing, the korban would not have been in use (since the altar where the korban was offered had been destroyed.

You didn't speak about the stoning or the touching of bodies.

-Well, your ignorance to Oral law vs Torah law indicates you don't know very much on the topic.

-Many sacrifices were eaten. Yeshua is still teaching animal sacrifice.

-Matthew 15 is where I addressed the stoning command, not sacrifice. Read it again.

 

[Simplelogic]

would you be able to cite scriptures telling us that Adam observed the Sabbath?

I can't recall it.

If someone is cut off from God...they are in spiritual darkness. Adam and Eve were both expelled from eden and God ceased communicating with them as we can see from the fact that there is no more discussion with Adam after he is expelled...whereas prior, God does speak with Adam on a regular basis in the Garden of Eden.

I do agree that Adam's relationship was never the same. I would not go so far as to say he had no fellowship with his God. There is nothing in the text to imply this.

 

[sojourner]

11‘The one who touches the corpse of any person shall be unclean for seven days. 12‘That one shall purify himself from uncleanness with the water on the third day and on the seventh day, and then he will be clean; but if he does not purify himself on the third day and on the seventh day, he will not be clean. Num 19:11-2

I don't think you understand the way sin works in the Torah. All humans became "unclean" at some point in time. It doesn't mean their hearts "rebelled" against God or anything. It was inevitable that we would have to touch a dead body or animal at times. Being made unclean is not a "sin" in the "christian" sense. It means you have to wash yourself to be considered clean (physically) again. These laws are for physical cleanliness and I am completely sure that if Yeshua was pronounced unclean, he would follow the Torah's commands on how to purify himself like any other Torah practicing Jew.

I don't think you understand who I am, or who Jesus was.

 

[sojourner]

-Well, your ignorance to Oral law vs Torah law indicates you don't know very much on the topic.

-Many sacrifices were eaten. Yeshua is still teaching animal sacrifice.

-Matthew 15 is where I addressed the stoning command, not sacrifice. Read it again.

Your ignorance as to the source of Torah, as well as the timeline and nature of Jesus and what he does or does not do, indicates that you don't know very much on the topic.

Get over yourself. You're not the only knowledgeable person here.

 

[Simplelogic]

I don't think you understand who I am, or who Jesus was.

I never said I knew who you were.

 

[Simplelogic]

Your ignorance as to the source of Torah, as well as the timeline and nature of Jesus and what he does or does not do, indicates that you don't know very much on the topic.

Get over yourself. You're not the only knowledgeable person here.

Please... elaborate.

 

[Simplelogic]

Do you have any issues with the texts I provided? Do you want to argue any of these points anymore?

 

[Desert Snake]

If this is really what Jesus preached, I don't like it.

 

[Simplelogic]

If this is really what Jesus preached, I don't like it.

Well he did. He preached complete return to Torah. If you don't like that then don't follow him.

 

[Desert Snake]

Well he did. He preached complete return to Torah. If you don't like that then don't follow him.

Actually you're saying He preached against the traditions....You're saying two different things, but may not realize it. The written Torah is combined with the verbal Torah.