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Are Muslims right about Paul?

Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Deadtroopers said:
You probably can't even get such an interpretation from John. The sense is almost always that law serves man.
Paul as I understand him views the law as death to Gentiles. If they take it up and leave off so much as a dot ot tattle. Of course if they take it up wholesale; snipping and all; they are Jewish; not Gentile anymore; and so saved under the earlier covenant. I don't find a replacement theology in Paul; I find a theology that extends salvation to all who will come in. In that sense thy are neither Jew nor Gentile. It's difficult to tease out because it has become garbled; deliberately and otherwise; in transmisssion as well as being perverted by later forgery.
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Salvation was always offered to gentiles. Not a Christian concept at all.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Deadtroopers said:
You have things backwards. The twelve are a later literary invention of whoever wrote the text attributed to Mark. Paul, the genuine Paul, and the other epistle writers that can be placed before the cataclysmic Jewish Revolt are our only remotely secure source for what the Jewish sect that generated the Christian Jewish cult looked like. That the one bears almost no resemblance to the other is just how the chips fall.
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Nope. Matthew records the same thing. BTW Matthew was the earliest account. We now have access to the Hebrew version of Matthew which Papias (1st century witness) who maintained that Matthew was originally written in HEBREW!

How many Apostles are there of Jesus Christ in the Bible?

In Matthew 10:2-4, we read:

Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, andJohn his brother; Mat 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Mat 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus and the 11 remaining Apostles picked the
twelfth according to this criteria in Acts 1:21-22:

Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Matthias was chosen to replace Judas. In Acts 1:25-26 we read:

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias;
and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Why only 12 Apostles are picked by Jesus?

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

and

Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

and more proof that there are only 12

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So we have a clear cut case that there are 12 Apostles of the lamb, or of
Jesus Christ.

So if we have a case of someone claiming to be an Apostle of Jesus whose name is not one of these 12 then that person or persons would be liars / telling a falsehood acording to the words of Jesus and his 12 Apostles, correct?

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

How Many Apostles of Jesus Christ are in the Bible
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Unification said:
Christians and Muslims are both in error. Neither understand what the law means, spiritually. It's literal to them, and veiled/covered. It is made complete "IN" Jesus... Neither do they understand what or who the Christ is and how he's resurrected within a human. Heaven and earth passing away are the leaving of Father and Mother and the two becoming one. (Husband and wife) in other words... Spirit and Body. Leaving the natural, literal, outward elements of our conditioned world's created within. Paul understood this, and speaks a lot of the "mysteries" of God and of the mind and consciousness. The light was revealed in him. He's just misunderstood. Doesn't help that the "early church man empire fathers" corrupted a lot of the writings for their vain buildings. For the Christians and western world paradigm of man's wisdom and doctrination, they are still brainwashed and conditioned by their minds to believe and be naive to anything they are told by mankind, which is also spiritual adultery.
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Gnostic bs. The law is the law…plain and simple. Your concept of "higher understanding" is a foolish myth.
 
Servant_of_the_One1

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Paul the false apostle turned message of Jesus pbuh from monotheism to polytheism. Jesus preached to worship only God, Paul the false apostle preached to worship Jesus and not the creator.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Deadtroopers said:
How many times must this be repeated: Paul is the only one preaching Christ that we know of directly; through him we know others were also preaching a Christ; but they seem to have been trying to restrict that Christ to their fellow (Hellenistic) Jews. Paul doesn't differentiate how they are all talking to this Christ. The other apostles never seem to have done the obvious and said "We're JC's mates, and get this:eek:ne of us is his brother. We never heard any of this ****e. This guy admits he banged his head; talks to people who aren't there; and that he never even met Jesus." That would be job jobbed and we would never hear of Paul again. Instead he is our earliest and most reliable witness to the early cult and everyone makes him out to be the source of the bulk of later Chistianity! Just how is that possible on any of the daft versions being pushed here?
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So we can either believe Paul…like you. Or we can believe Yeshua and his twelve apostles. Easy choice.;)
 
Servant_of_the_One1

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
Agreed. Hey?? We actually agree on something!!
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Hallelujah-Reaction-GIFS.gif

Finally
 
Unification

Unification

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
Gnostic bs. The law is the law…plain and simple. Your concept of "higher understanding" is a foolish myth.
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With your simple, natural, earthly matter of logic, please elaborate on what this means :

11 When men strive together one with another , and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliverher husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:
12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Unification said:
With your simple, natural, earthly matter of logic, please elaborate on what this means :

11 When men strive together one with another , and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliverher husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets:
12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her.
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Could you please explain Deuteronomy 25:11-12? Was the woman to be maimed, by cutting off her hand? | Church of the Eternal God
 
Unification

Unification

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
No. The Torah is not "earthly". Nor is it "man's wisdom and logic". It was given by God Himself.
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Now you are applying God's wisdom and understanding can be known without "higher understanding." Placing plain and simple literal and outwardness of man's understanding on equal level with God himself.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Unification said:
Now you are applying God's wisdom and understanding can be known without "higher understanding." Placing plain and simple literal and outwardness of man's understanding on equal level with God himself.
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11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. 12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’ 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. Deut 30: 11-14

Yes. His commandments are simple to understand. He designed it that way because He DOESN'T want it to be about OUR HEADS. He wants it to be about OUR HEARTS…i.e. obedience
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Unification said:
It's two short scriptural verses of a law that is plain and simple to you. Should take a quick minute.
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read the link. eye for and eye was a model for restitution. People were not plucking out peoples eyes in ancient Israel. They were REQUIRED to repay that which they damaged. Same concept for this passage. Cutting off a hand was a term that meant "make restitution monetarily". Yeshua used this same concept saying "cut of your right hand" or "pluck out your eye". This is a figurative concept about repentance and restitution. Are you happy?
 
Unification

Unification

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. 12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’ 14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. Deut 30: 11-14

Yes. His commandments are simple to understand. He designed it that way because He DOESN'T want it to be about OUR HEADS. He wants it to be about OUR HEARTS…i.e. obedience
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They are very simple. Since God is no respector of persons, is just and equally balanced, why would it be in one's heart to give favoritism to a literal heritage? Sounds like pride and reputation. Why would God make literal females lower than literal males? Sounds like control, unjust, and inequality. That is simple logic.
 
Unification

Unification

Well-Known Member
Simplelogic said:
read the link. eye for and eye was a model for restitution. People were not plucking out peoples eyes in ancient Israel. They were REQUIRED to repay that which they damaged. Same concept for this passage. Cutting off a hand was a term that meant "make restitution monetarily". Yeshua used this same concept saying "cut of your right hand" or "pluck out your eye". This is a figurative concept about repentance and restitution. Are you happy?
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I'm not satisfied. Clearly, it's talking about man and woman, husband and wife.
 
Simplelogic

Simplelogic

Well-Known Member
Unification said:
They are very simple. Since God is no respector of persons, is just and equally balanced, why would it be in one's heart to give favoritism to a literal heritage? Sounds like pride and reputation. Why would God make literal females lower than literal males? Sounds like control, unjust, and inequality. That is simple logic.
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He made females to help and serve males. He also made them to reproduce offspring. A very high calling.
 
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