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Are Natural Disasters Punishment From God?
- Thread starter starlite
- Start date
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The only OT verses about him suggest this. There is no OT verse suggesting an independent evil. That was added later by NT Christians that came in contact with other religions.
Where is he called an "adversary of God in the OT?
LOL. You are the one that suggested since YHVH asked where he was coming from, that suggested he was doing evil on his own. There is no actual asking there.
This is how the KJV translates these verses
Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
Hab 1:14 And makest men as the fishes of the sea, as the creeping things, that have no ruler over them?
Hab 1:15 They take up all of them with the angle, they catch them in their net, and gather them in their drag: therefore they rejoice and are glad.
I translate Hab 1:12-15 to be something like this -
For are not thee from eternity YHVH Elohiym, Holy One; Never dying (eternal) God of Divine Law/justice; Appointing the strong (rock solid) to be His judges for council/correction?
Pure (of) sight for perceiving evil and wickedness, and looking for perverseness, (they) thereby are assuredly able to see the treacherous devising to conceal their guilt from the righteous;
and (Thou) do (thus) appoint men over; as with the fish in the sea and the creeping things (that are) ignorant of rule/law.
All are hooked, drug up/caught, he catches the doomed and he gathers them from his net and thereafter he is glad and he rejoices.
A tester/adversary presents what he thinks will tempt you - to see if you will take the bait - or - remain faithful. The Bible says if found wanting he accuses you before YHVH.
They have this verse wrong. YHVH asks Satan to "consider" Job. Yet they translate it to look like Satan's doing.
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natasha levchenko
Member
i suppose, since Bible is God's word, he is responsible for the things that are written there, NT is a part of the Bible which is God-inspired
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
The NT people got it wrong because they didn't understand the language of the OT.
I wish Christians would learn the languages of their holy books.
For instance "satan" is not a proper name. It means adversary. Many places where Christians think it is talking about the "some evil being named Satan" it is actually talking about normal adversaries.
Some examples Because they literally try to translate the verses to make it look like there is just ONE evil being called SATAN.
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Here is one that shows they know it means adversary the actual word is satan H7854.
(KJV) 1 Kings 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
1 Kings 11:14 And the LORD stirred up a Satan unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
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Another one where they use adversaries but the actual word is satans.
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me?
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be satans unto me?
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(Mark 3:26) And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.
Satan here is actually a plural and this verse should read
And if adversaries rise up against themselves and disunite, (they) are not able to stand firm, contrawise, termination reigns (the end is eminent.)
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(Mark 4:15) Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
Here it is being used as doubt, which is adversity against self.
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1Ki 5:4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrence.
adversary here again is actually the word satan.
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A most interesting verse for my argument is Numbers 22:22. Note who the SATAN is.
And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way as adversary (satan H7854 ) against him.
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As you can see they purposely pollute and manipulate verses for their own purposes.
Satan is an Angel of YHVH doing his Job as the adversary/tester.
His first meeting with Jesus is as a tester/adversary, to make sure he is ready for his task.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led aside by the Spirit into the wilderness, to be tempted of the devil.
That tempted is actually G3984- TESTED.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
For Natasha -
I dropped this to the bottom so you could find it easier.
The NT people got it wrong because they didn't understand the language of the OT.
I wish Christians would learn the languages of their holy books.
For instance "satan" is not a proper name. It means adversary. Many places where Christians think it is talking about the "some evil being named Satan" it is actually talking about normal adversaries.
Some examples Because they literally try to translate the verses to make it look like there is just ONE evil being called SATAN.
*
Here is one that shows they know it means adversary the actual word is satan H7854.
(KJV) 1 Kings 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
1 Kings 11:14 And the LORD stirred up a Satan unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
*
Another one where they use adversaries but the actual word is satans.
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me?
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be satans unto me?
*
(Mark 3:26) And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.
Satan here is actually a plural and this verse should read
And if adversaries rise up against themselves and disunite, (they) are not able to stand firm, contrawise, termination reigns (the end is eminent.)
*
(Mark 4:15) Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
Here it is being used as doubt, which is adversity against self.
*
1Ki 5:4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrence.
adversary here again is actually the word satan.
*
A most interesting verse for my argument is Numbers 22:22. Note who the SATAN is.
And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way as adversary (satan H7854 ) against him.
*
As you can see they purposely pollute and manipulate verses for their own purposes.
Satan is an Angel of YHVH doing his Job as the adversary/tester.
His first meeting with Jesus is as a tester/adversary, to make sure he is ready for his task.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led aside by the Spirit into the wilderness, to be tempted of the devil.
That tempted is actually G3984- TESTED.
*
I dropped this to the bottom so you could find it easier.
Ingledsva said:
Ingledsva said:
Natasha levchenko said:
The NT people got it wrong because they didn't understand the language of the OT.
I wish Christians would learn the languages of their holy books.
For instance "satan" is not a proper name. It means adversary. Many places where Christians think it is talking about the "some evil being named Satan" it is actually talking about normal adversaries.
Some examples Because they literally try to translate the verses to make it look like there is just ONE evil being called SATAN.
*
Here is one that shows they know it means adversary the actual word is satan H7854.
(KJV) 1 Kings 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
1 Kings 11:14 And the LORD stirred up a Satan unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom.
*
Another one where they use adversaries but the actual word is satans.
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me?
2Sa 19:22 And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be satans unto me?
*
(Mark 3:26) And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come.
Satan here is actually a plural and this verse should read
And if adversaries rise up against themselves and disunite, (they) are not able to stand firm, contrawise, termination reigns (the end is eminent.)
*
(Mark 4:15) Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.
Here it is being used as doubt, which is adversity against self.
*
1Ki 5:4 But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrence.
adversary here again is actually the word satan.
*
A most interesting verse for my argument is Numbers 22:22. Note who the SATAN is.
And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way as adversary (satan H7854 ) against him.
*
As you can see they purposely pollute and manipulate verses for their own purposes.
Satan is an Angel of YHVH doing his Job as the adversary/tester.
His first meeting with Jesus is as a tester/adversary, to make sure he is ready for his task.
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led aside by the Spirit into the wilderness, to be tempted of the devil.
That tempted is actually G3984- TESTED.
*
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I have a question for you Ingledsva, if God viewed him as a loyal servant doing his job, why call him an 'adversary'?
Doesnt this seem like the 'WRONG' designation for someone doing the right thing?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
His assigned job is to be a tester/adversary/opposer. So why would it be wrong to call him such? According to the Bible if found wanting, he will stand beside YHVH to condemn you.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
according to the OT, all adversaries against man will be destroyed.
Jer 30:16*Therefore all those devouring you will themselves be devoured; and as for all your adversaries, into captivity they will all of them go
if Satan is acting as an adversary on Gods command, it would make no sense to devour him or send him into captivity for doing the right thing.
The christian explanation for who the devil really is makes so much more sense to me. He's an enemy of God who will soon be destroyed. And the passage in Ezekiel 28:14*You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15*You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you. show that he's a good guy turned bad.
Thats the only logical explanation for his existence. If we were to accept this crazy idea that God actually sends Satan out to do the things he does, then the bibles description of God as a loving merciful and kind heavenly father is completely falsified.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
For cripe sake the word is a translation and has several definitions. It is using the human "enemies" sense there.
Why do you guys keep taking verses about humans to be verses about Satan? It is talking about the Human King of Tsor (not Tyre.) Tsor is in Palestine.
28:13 actually doesn't say he was in Eden - it says from the creation of Eden (the beginning) great things were made in anticipation of his birth.
28:14 again is talking about a human King - and actually says something like -
Eze 28:14 You the Cherub anointed and protected and placed on the mountain Sacred to the Elohiym in the midst of the stones of fire to walk.
Hebrew Sacred Mountain volcanic.
Eze 28:15 Perfection was thy path from birth chosen; before appeared iniquity.
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Verses 7 and 8 make it very plain that this is a human King.
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the perfection of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy splendor.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the grave/destruction, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. (no proper burial)
And why would it be evil for YHVH to have a tester? No one has to fail the test. Jesus was tested - and according to the story - passed.
Edit - I forgot to add - AGAIN -
A most interesting verse for my argument is Numbers 22:22. Note who the SATAN is.
Num 22:21 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ***, and went with the princes of Moab.
Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way as adversary (satan H7854 ) against him.
This verse specifically says the ANGEL OF THE LORD is a SATAN.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
can i ask you what bible you use?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I have quite a few different versions on my computer, and commentary, and other exegesis, etc. Some of them are
The 1568 Bishops, 1587 Geneva, 1611 King James & a modern KJV, 1899 Douay Rheims, Youngs Literal Translation, 1833 Webster, Hebraic Roots Bible, Hebrew Study Bible, Tanach, Vulgate, Septuagint, Textus Receptus Greek, etc.
I use the Tanach and Septuagint quite a bit.
Some of the books I use often are, Vine's Expository Greek, Unger's Bible Encyclopedia, and the good old basic Strong's.
Unger's is really-really interesting.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
For Pegg.
I have quite a few different versions on my computer, and commentary, and other exegesis, etc. Some of them are
The 1568 Bishops, 1587 Geneva, 1611 King James & a modern KJV, 1899 Douay Rheims, Youngs Literal Translation, 1833 Webster, Hebraic Roots Bible, Hebrew Study Bible, Tanach, Vulgate, Septuagint, Textus Receptus Greek, etc.
I like being able to look at how the older versions translated a text.
I use the Tanach and Septuagint quite a bit.
Some of the books I use often are, Vine's Expository Greek, Unger's Bible Encyclopedia, and the good old basic Strong's, so I can give people the numbers.
Unger's is really-really interesting.
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Pegg said:
I have quite a few different versions on my computer, and commentary, and other exegesis, etc. Some of them are
The 1568 Bishops, 1587 Geneva, 1611 King James & a modern KJV, 1899 Douay Rheims, Youngs Literal Translation, 1833 Webster, Hebraic Roots Bible, Hebrew Study Bible, Tanach, Vulgate, Septuagint, Textus Receptus Greek, etc.
I like being able to look at how the older versions translated a text.
I use the Tanach and Septuagint quite a bit.
Some of the books I use often are, Vine's Expository Greek, Unger's Bible Encyclopedia, and the good old basic Strong's, so I can give people the numbers.
Unger's is really-really interesting.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
And again - if given a commission amongst all the people - meaning he could be coming from anywhere - why would YHVH asking where he came from - mean YHVH didn't send him out on that task?
Also again - here is a verse saying the ANGEL OF THE LORD is a SATAN.
Num 22:21 And Balaam rose up in the morning, and saddled his ***, and went with the princes of Moab.
Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary (SATAN H7854) against him. ...
This verse specifically says the ANGEL OF THE LORD is a SATAN - sent by angry YHVH.
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Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
hey here's a question for you...
there are billions of humans, why only 1 adversary to test us?
Wouldnt it make more sense to create many adversary's instead of just one?
sure, anyone can be a satan/resister. In that passage the angel was sent to resist the path Balam was taking. But there is still a stark difference in the book of Job where it mentions 'The' adversary.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Who says there is only one adversary?
The Bible never uses the words "Satan" or "Lucifer" as a proper name.
Instead, the Bible uses them as titles.
In fact, Jesus at one time held the title Lucifer.
Jesus himself calls Peter Satan...
So I cannot help but wonder where you get the idea that there is only one adversary...
Assuming you are correct in your belief that there is only one adversary, what makes you think any mere mortal human would be able to answer your "why would god" question?
Nothing in Job actually indicates that there is some ultimate adversary being.
Not even in your favored version of the Bible.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Christians and Muslims are the only groups saying there is but one "evil" Satan.
Ingledsva said:
There is absolutely no difference except in the erroneous opinion of Christians and Muslims.
It specifically says THE ANGEL OF THE LORD is A SATAN. And sent by YHVH. Which proves my point that these angels are commissioned to be such, and add to that the PROOF that there is NO verse saying Satan is evil and on his own.
That baloney was added later, and is not in the OT.
Forgot to add - that this angel could also be the same one in Job.
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Muffled
Jesus in me
Gods judgments as described in the Bible are quite different from natural disasters.
God is selective. The Bible says: Man sees what appears to the eyes; but as for Jehovah, he sees what the heart is.Natural disasters, on the other hand, strike with little or no warning, and they kill and maim indiscriminately. To some extent, mankind has made such disasters worse by damaging the natural environment and by building in areas prone to earthquakes, floods, and extreme weather.
- Jehovah reads the hearts of individuals and destroys only those in opposition to him.Genesis 18:23-32.
- God sends warnings first, thereby giving those who listen to him the opportunity to escape. Examples: Lot and Noah
I believe that many disasters are judgements from God but not neccessarily all of them. In times past God announced His judgements but I don't see that happening these days.
God has told me that we are no longer in a period of grace but are now in a time of judgement. In case you don't know how that works say you have a debt and a grace period to pay the debt. When the grace period is over the debt may go to a collector and if necessary to court where a judgement will be made.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
I agree with you completely - as the innocent (babies, mentally challenged, etc.) would be killed with the "supposed" guilty, - and that would be YHVH MURDER!
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