Are soul and spirit the same?What are they in bible context?

[seekandfind]

Soul and spirit have different meanings in different parts of the Bible.
Does a person's soul die when their body is killed?
Does the spirit in a person know anything?

Soul means life. So yes the soul dies when their body is killed. The resurrection can make you live again.
The spirit does not know anything as it means force, breath, wind. When it comes to the holy spirit it is basically God in action.

 

[Soapy]

Hi Soapy - just for clarification - Unitarians are Christians who reject the idea of the Trinity and believe that God is a single being.

Oops… I’m sorry, I was meaning to write, ‘Oneness Apostolic (or Pentecostal)’.

I didn’t know about Unitarianism but I’ve just read that it’s a wide open belief system in which there are many ideologies but the central theme is that Jesus is not almighty God.

I fully agree that Jesus is not almighty God nor was he pre-existent as ….(what?) in Heaven before creation, and therefore Jesus could not have been the creator of all things - And that is evidence that scripture verses that appear to say ‘Jesus’ created all things were clear falsifications of scriptures as I have stated many times.

Even such as ‘Jesus says he came from Heaven’, which is obviously not true as the verse states such a person as ‘The Son of Man’. The scripture falsifies relied on the fact that most people could not read and the nuance expressed in the claims when read were good enough to fool listeners into believing what was read to them. Also, you were in danger of your life if you dare to question what a preacher told you so compliance with false belief was the order of the day. Today, however, we can (nearly) all read fur ourselves and even detect fallacy and no one is going to imprison or kill us for believing the truth: Of course it does mean we are ostrasized from mainstream churches (99% trinitarian based) which puts off those who find the need for congregational attendance - I’ve heard people say they attend but don’t believe - it’s just for a sense of belonging to a ‘Church’. I go along with that to a degree where there really is no other choice OR ELSE follow Jesus’ claim that ‘Worship of the Father will be / Is in Spirit and Truth’ (Private communion) and not confined to a physical building (Church / Synagogue / Temple) (Public communion).

I don’t label my belief but someone told me recently that it sounded like ‘Adoptionism’. I’m trying to find out what that is actually about and how close it comes to what I do believe but there isn’t a whole heap of info out there! But it does statically and strictly claim that Jesus is not almighty God but a man empowered to do great works by the anointing of God’s holy Spirit - the Spirit of God, not a person!! And that only YHWH is God, is the Father, the creator of all things who set the stars in their place and laid out the foundations of the earth, boundaries of the seas, and all else within (which I find completely valid since the term ‘Father’ means ‘He who creates, he who brings into being, He who gives life’… none of which apply to Jesus, even as Christ with the power of God, except at the end of time where Jesus IS GRANTED the power of giving ETERNAL LIFE to the resurrected who he deems worthy which makes him ‘Eternal Father’ to them as prophesied by the prophet Isaiah)

 

[Brian2]

That’s great to hear. Three persons as one God is blasphemous. YHWH God is one God… alone.

That sounds like YHWH spreading out the heavens alone (Isa 44:24) yet the heavens being the work of the hands of the Son.
That means 2 persons are YHWH. No mention of the Holy Spirit there but the principle of more than one person being in the one YHWH is established.

And the great deeds of almighty God are attributed to one of humanity - even if that one is called, ‘Son of God’. It makes no difference to Trinitarians that ‘SON’ in spiritual terms, means:

• ‘One who does the works of their Father’
• ‘One who is led by the Spirit of the Father’

SON means more than what you claim.

Hence Jesus says:

• ‘I did not call myself God. … I only said that GOD IS MY FATHER and I am doing the works my Father sent me to do, if I’m not doing them then at least believe by the works themselves!’ (Paraphrased!) Sad to say but Trinitarians cannot bring themselves to admit that it is PAGAN BELIEF that claims that “A son is equal to his Father”… and how can it be that he who receives from his father is equal to his Father who gave to him??

In fact, NO ONE EVER actually called Jesus ‘[Almighty] GOD’… ever!!!

They wanted to stone Jesus because He claimed to be the Son of God, thus making Himself equal to God and even God.
Jesus did not say "I did not call myself God".
Jesus described His sonship in greater detail and when they heard what He said they still wanted to kills Him.
Thomas called Jesus "My God" and Jesus said that He was almighty, had all power and authority in heaven and earth.
Almighty God is coming.
Rev 1:7Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. 8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come— the Almighty.

 

[Brian2]

Soul means life. So yes the soul dies when their body is killed. The resurrection can make you live again.
The spirit does not know anything as it means force, breath, wind. When it comes to the holy spirit it is basically God in action.

Why does Jesus say that a person who kills your body cannot kill your soul?
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
When it comes to the spirit of a man, why does Paul tell us that it knows the mind of the man?
1Cor 2:10 But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.…

 

[Brian2]

I fully agree that Jesus is not almighty God nor was he pre-existent as ….(what?) in Heaven before creation, and therefore Jesus could not have been the creator of all things - And that is evidence that scripture verses that appear to say ‘Jesus’ created all things were clear falsifications of scriptures as I have stated many times.

You wanting to deny the scriptures is evidence that you are believing your beliefs and not what the Bible tells us.
But I guess you don't see anything wrong with that, just as @amazing grace does not see anything wrong with taking those same verses and twisting the meaning and try to make them not mean that Jesus pre existed in heaven with the Father.

Even such as ‘Jesus says he came from Heaven’, which is obviously not true as the verse states such a person as ‘The Son of Man’. The scripture falsifies relied on the fact that most people could not read and the nuance expressed in the claims when read were good enough to fool listeners into believing what was read to them. Also, you were in danger of your life if you dare to question what a preacher told you so compliance with false belief was the order of the day. Today, however, we can (nearly) all read fur ourselves and even detect fallacy and no one is going to imprison or kill us for believing the truth: Of course it does mean we are ostrasized from mainstream churches (99% trinitarian based) which puts off those who find the need for congregational attendance - I’ve heard people say they attend but don’t believe - it’s just for a sense of belonging to a ‘Church’. I go along with that to a degree where there really is no other choice OR ELSE follow Jesus’ claim that ‘Worship of the Father will be / Is in Spirit and Truth’ (Private communion) and not confined to a physical building (Church / Synagogue / Temple) (Public communion).

Picking and choosing which passages in the Bible are true does not sound good. You deny the Bible so that you can believe what you have decided to believe.
The Son of Man came from heaven. In heaven He was not a human obviously, but was still the same person.
You are sort of saying that even if Jesus tells us that He came from heaven and was in heaven with the Father (which He did tell us), that it cannot be true because Jesus on earth was a man and so cannot have come from heaven. Your interpretation does not make sense in any ordinary way of understanding what Jesus said.

I don’t label my belief but someone told me recently that it sounded like ‘Adoptionism’. I’m trying to find out what that is actually about and how close it comes to what I do believe but there isn’t a whole heap of info out there! But it does statically and strictly claim that Jesus is not almighty God but a man empowered to do great works by the anointing of God’s holy Spirit - the Spirit of God, not a person!! And that only YHWH is God, is the Father, the creator of all things who set the stars in their place and laid out the foundations of the earth, boundaries of the seas, and all else within (which I find completely valid since the term ‘Father’ means ‘He who creates, he who brings into being, He who gives life’… none of which apply to Jesus, even as Christ with the power of God, except at the end of time where Jesus IS GRANTED the power of giving ETERNAL LIFE to the resurrected who he deems worthy which makes him ‘Eternal Father’ to them as prophesied by the prophet Isaiah)

Yes Jesus gives life when He raises people from the grave and Jesus also gives life to those who believe in Him, are His children. (Isa 9:6--eternal father, Isa 53:10--see his offspring)

 

[Soapy]

That sounds like YHWH spreading out the heavens alone (Isa 44:24) yet the heavens being the work of the hands of the Son.
That means 2 persons are YHWH. No mention of the Holy Spirit there but the principle of more than one person being in the one YHWH is established.



SON means more than what you claim.



They wanted to stone Jesus because He claimed to be the Son of God, thus making Himself equal to God and even God.
Jesus did not say "I did not call myself God".
Jesus described His sonship in greater detail and when they heard what He said they still wanted to kills Him.
Thomas called Jesus "My God" and Jesus said that He was almighty, had all power and authority in heaven and earth.
Almighty God is coming.
Rev 1:7Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. 8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come— the Almighty.

Brian2, please be careful how far you go with what you are saying!

I know that you know that you are not expressing Bible truths - is it possible got you to just admit the truth?

The Jews accused Jesus of being equal to God (we are meant to believe) but the idea that a Son is equal to his Father is a pagan concept. It is meant to make the human ‘Son’ seem like he was a God in the flesh. But Jesus told them that even almighty God called mighty ones (Gods) of Godliness ‘Gods’, and this is scriptural. YET HE ONLY SAID THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER. That means that he DID NOT CALL HIMSELF GOD!!! He only told them that God was his Father.
And, he defined what it meant to be ‘Son [of God] by stating that he was doing the works of his Father (God) : ‘A Son is he who does the works of his Father’. His much clearer csn that definition be?

But you say that ‘Son’ can mean more than this - ok, please tell me what you mean, thanks.

 

[vulcanlogician]

There is a clash of cultural concepts that happened in Christianity. That is, three different concepts of "soul" were bastardized into one with the advent of Christianity, and over the years this bastardized concept has become an idea in its own right. Which three concepts?

1. The Greek concept of "psyche"... more related to "mind" in modern nomenclature.
2. The Latin/Roman concept of "anima." This is the ANIMAting force found in all living things. "Anima" is also the root of the word "animate" and "animals" (Animals are distinct from plants why? They are "animated." They appear to act of their own volition.) This concept doesn't have so much to do with mind but might be more related to spirit.
3. The concept of breath. This is the Hebrew concept. When a being is breathing, she is alive. When breathing stops... well, so does life. You see this concept first in Genesis where God breathed life into dust to create Adam.

Over time, with the dominance of Christianity, we can see why we have a bastardized idea of all these concepts. Christianity is a merger of Greek and Hebrew thought which was ultimately accepted by the citizens of Rome. Hence, understanding the true essence of these things requires that we stand back from all three of these traditions and try to make independent observations. Trying to work WITHIN, say, a Christian perspective and trying to get to the bottom of the issue will only lead you to a semantic maze... a maze constructed by history and tradition.

 

[amazing grace]

There is a clash of cultural concepts that happened in Christianity. That is, three different concepts of "soul" were bastardized into one with the advent of Christianity, and over the years this bastardized concept has become an idea in its own right. Which three concepts?

1. The Greek concept of "psyche"... more related to "mind" in modern nomenclature.
2. The Latin/Roman concept of "anima." This is the ANIMAting force found in all living things. "Anima" is also the root of the word "animate" and "animals" (Animals are distinct from plants why? They are "animated." They appear to act of their own volition.) This concept doesn't have so much to do with mind but might be more related to spirit.
3. The concept of breath. This is the Hebrew concept. When a being is breathing, she is alive. When breathing stops... well, so does life. You see this concept first in Genesis where God breathed life into dust to create Adam.

Over time, with the dominance of Christianity, we can see why we have a bastardized idea of all these concepts. Christianity is a merger of Greek and Hebrew thought which was ultimately accepted by the citizens of Rome. Hence, understanding the true essence of these things requires that we stand back from all three of these traditions and try to make independent observations. Trying to work WITHIN, say, a Christian perspective and trying to get to the bottom of the issue will only lead you to a semantic maze... a maze constructed by history and tradition.

I would say that the body is of course, our flesh, the soul our breath and the spirit animates our bodies. In scripture the meaning of soul/spirit are sometimes blurred as in not clearly delineated. So, it could be understood that this body of flesh is animated by the soul/spirit of a person.

BTW, I like the information you presented.

 

[seekandfind]

Why does Jesus say that a person who kills your body cannot kill your soul?
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
When it comes to the spirit of a man, why does Paul tell us that it knows the mind of the man?
1Cor 2:10 But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.…

Mt 10:28 is refering to Gods ability to resurrect. Its talking about judgment/resurrection. They may be able to kill you, but its ultimately up to God if you stay dead or not. Thats why you dont need to worry if you die at mans hands. You need to worry if God is pleased with you.

1 Cor 2:10 indicates Gods spirit or active force shows us Gods truths.
vs 11 shows that our own active force-what makes us do what we do, is only known by us...and of course God knows.

 

[Brian2]

Brian2, please be careful how far you go with what you are saying!

I know that you know that you are not expressing Bible truths - is it possible got you to just admit the truth?

The Jews accused Jesus of being equal to God (we are meant to believe) but the idea that a Son is equal to his Father is a pagan concept. It is meant to make the human ‘Son’ seem like he was a God in the flesh. But Jesus told them that even almighty God called mighty ones (Gods) of Godliness ‘Gods’, and this is scriptural. YET HE ONLY SAID THAT GOD WAS HIS FATHER. That means that he DID NOT CALL HIMSELF GOD!!! He only told them that God was his Father.
And, he defined what it meant to be ‘Son [of God] by stating that he was doing the works of his Father (God) : ‘A Son is he who does the works of his Father’. His much clearer csn that definition be?

But you say that ‘Son’ can mean more than this - ok, please tell me what you mean, thanks.

I have told you and you know that a son is he who comes from his father.
You seem to want to say that this definition is rubbish when it comes to God and Him having a Son.

 

[Brian2]

Mt 10:28 is refering to Gods ability to resurrect. Its talking about judgment/resurrection. They may be able to kill you, but its ultimately up to God if you stay dead or not. Thats why you dont need to worry if you die at mans hands. You need to worry if God is pleased with you.

It tells us that is someone kills our body they cannot kill our soul,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but God can destroy both body and soul.
JWs say that if someone kills our body they have killed our soul also,,,,,,,,,,,, but God can destroy both body and soul.

1 Cor 2:10 indicates Gods spirit or active force shows us Gods truths.
vs 11 shows that our own active force-what makes us do what we do, is only known by us...and of course God knows.

It does not say that our spirit is only known by us.
It does say that our spirit knows our mind.

 

[seekandfind]

It tells us that is someone kills our body they cannot kill our soul,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but God can destroy both body and soul.

Either all other scriptures are wrong about what the soul is and youre right about one verse or they are all right and you are misunderstanding one.
Which is more likely?

 

[Soapy]

I have told you and you know that a son is he who comes from his father.
You seem to want to say that this definition is rubbish when it comes to God and Him having a Son.

No Brian2, you are speaking of the flesh. Scriptures is speaking of the Spiritual.

In discussing scriptures you need to think SPIRITUAL, not earthly.

In this case, therefore, ‘Son’ means:

• ‘One who does the works of the Father, the works the Father gives him to do’

God is spirit and does not ‘PROCREATE’. Your take is from mankind where an offspring is PROCREATED from a Father. God only CREATES and He looks for those He created to ‘Do the works he commands them to do’. If they do so then God ADOPTS them as ‘SPIRITUAL SONS’ as He did with Jesus, making Jesus ‘CHRIST’ by God putting His Spirit on Him.
In the same way that Jacob put coat of many colours on the Son of his love, so also GOD called out in announcement to all the world: ‘This is my Son in whom I am well pleased’ and ‘You are my Son; This day I HAVE BECOME YOUR FATHER’. And all mankind are called to be “ Son’s of God” by adoption also - and indeed we all have access to Sonship to God if we are reborn and are ‘Led by the Spirit of God’:

• “All whom are led by the Spirit of God are Sons….of God!”

Brian2, Sonship to God, which is what is meant here, has nothing to do with Flesh offspring!!

As to the last part of your post:

• “You seem to want to say that this definition is rubbish when it comes to God and Him having a Son.”

Spiritual Son to a Spiritual Father.

 

[Brian2]

Either all other scriptures are wrong about what the soul is and youre right about one verse or they are all right and you are misunderstanding one.
Which is more likely?

What did I say the soul is? I didn't.
I have read that "soul" has a variety of meanings however and that the meaning seemed to change towards the end of the OT and into the NT and include more of the meaning that the soul is a spiritual part of man that survives the death of the body.
I read that the "soul" is usually the whole person in the OT.
So in Gen 2:7 for example it is the whole person, the combination of the spirit and the body.
If we stick with that idea then when the body dies the spirit remains alive.
This spirit that remains alive imo is the soul that is not killed at the death of the body (Matt 10:28)
Since the body is no longer a part of the person, the spirit is the whole person.
This soul is imo the spirit, and the spirit is not just a generic life force.
The spirit of a man knows the mind/ thoughts of a man for example. (1Cor 2:11)
The spirit of a man is that part of the person that the Spirit of God bears witness with, that we are children of God. (Romans 8:16)
So Jesus is saying that those who can kill the body cannot kill the whole of the person. The soul survives the death of the body.
I don't think that all other scriptures teach only what the JWs teach.

 

[seekandfind]

What did I say the soul is? I didn't.
I have read that "soul" has a variety of meanings however and that the meaning seemed to change towards the end of the OT and into the NT and include more of the meaning that the soul is a spiritual part of man that survives the death of the body.
I read that the "soul" is usually the whole person in the OT.
So in Gen 2:7 for example it is the whole person, the combination of the spirit and the body.
If we stick with that idea then when the body dies the spirit remains alive.
This spirit that remains alive imo is the soul that is not killed at the death of the body (Matt 10:28)
Since the body is no longer a part of the person, the spirit is the whole person.
This soul is imo the spirit, and the spirit is not just a generic life force.
The spirit of a man knows the mind/ thoughts of a man for example. (1Cor 2:11)
The spirit of a man is that part of the person that the Spirit of God bears witness with, that we are children of God. (Romans 8:16)
So Jesus is saying that those who can kill the body cannot kill the whole of the person. The soul survives the death of the body.
I don't think that all other scriptures teach only what the JWs teach.

The soul and the spirit are not the same thing...thats why they are different words. "For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit" - Heb 4:12.

I think part of the issue is what you believe in your heart. It seems you think the soul and/or the spirit is an essence of our personality that remains after death. Thats not a scriptural teaching. The scriptures teach "the dead know nothing"- Eccl 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten."

In the OT the soul is life or the life of a person or animal which you found to be true. You think God changed the meaning or the writers did but they didnt. You changed your understanding. If you keep the original meaning as you study scripture youll get the understanding of the verse. Previous verses referring to soul in the scriptures werent talking about the judgment seat like Jesus was‐thats why it can seem different. But its an illustrative point‐ the life(soul) living after the judgment is up to God, not man. Jesus point in Mt 10 is that his followers will be hated, even killed, but dont worry about it because there is a resurrection. Worry about being judged unrighteous and being destroyed.

Mt 10
"Further, brother will hand brother over to death, and a father his child, and children will rise up against parents and will have them put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives. 24 “A student is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25 It is enough for the student to become as his teacher, and the slave as his master. If people have called the master of the house Be·elʹze·bub, how much more those of his household? 26 So do not fear them, for there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, and nothing secret that will not become known. 27 What I tell you in the darkness, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, preach from the housetops. 28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna. 29 Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So have no fear; you are worth more than many sparrows."

 

[Audie]

SOUL
Hebrew word nephesh or the Greek word psykhe
basically refers to people, animals, or the life that a person or an animal has

1.People
[COLOR=var(--du-color--textDefault, #292929)]"This is the word that Jehovah has commanded, ‘Pick up some of it, each one in proportion to his eating. YOU are to take an omer measure for each individual according to the number of the souls that each of YOU has in his tent."- Ex 16:16[/COLOR]

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God." Rom- 13:1

2. Animals
“Then God said: ‘Let the waters swarm with living souls..."Gen 1:20

3. Life of a person
“All the men who were seeking your soul, are dead.” Exodus 4:19

"I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his life soul in behalf of the sheep.” John 10:11


SPIRIT
Hebrew word ruach or the Greek word pneuma. Means breath, force

Note that the life(soul) without spirit dies.

“If you [Jehovah] take away their spirit [ruʹach], they die and return to the dust.” Psalm 104:29

"Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead..." James 2:26

“I am going to bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy from under the heavens all flesh that has the breath [ruʹach] of life.” Genesis 6:17

“The dust of his body returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.” Eccl 12:7

They are as much the same as Bigfoot and mermaids are the same

 

[seekandfind]

Lol. Yes.

 

[Brian2]

The soul and the spirit are not the same thing...thats why they are different words. "For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit" - Heb 4:12.

Yes OK, it does not matter if soul and spirit are different words with different (but overlapping) meanings.

I think part of the issue is what you believe in your heart. It seems you think the soul and/or the spirit is an essence of our personality that remains after death. Thats not a scriptural teaching. The scriptures teach "the dead know nothing"- Eccl 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten."

It's true that the dead know nothing about what is happening in the realm of the living and I imagine there also is nothing to know in the realm of the dead. There is no more reward or eventually there is no memory of them, it is forgotten, and this reward and memory are in the realm of the living, under the sun. It is contrasting the state of the dead with the state of the living.
That the dead know nothing is not saying that there is not an essence of us that remains after death.
The idea that there is no spiritual soul that lives on after death of the body not only denies what Jesus told us in Matt 10:28, the whole idea is built on false ideas about some OT verses.
IOWs there are no passages in the OT or NT that tell us that the dead do not exist any more.
eg Psalm 146:4 should be translated
When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
on that very day their plans come to nothing.
And passages which say there is no praising God in sheol are talking specifically about public worship,,,,,,,,,, "praise" being the word that is used for that.
I have already pointed out that Eccles 9:5 is contrasting the state of the living with the state of the dead, not saying that the dead do not exist.

In the OT the soul is life or the life of a person or animal which you found to be true. You think God changed the meaning or the writers did but they didnt. You changed your understanding. If you keep the original meaning as you study scripture youll get the understanding of the verse. Previous verses referring to soul in the scriptures werent talking about the judgment seat like Jesus was‐thats why it can seem different. But its an illustrative point‐ the life(soul) living after the judgment is up to God, not man. Jesus point in Mt 10 is that his followers will be hated, even killed, but dont worry about it because there is a resurrection. Worry about being judged unrighteous and being destroyed.

In the OT the meaning of soul can be the life of the person and also is the whole person (as in Gen 2:7). There are also places where it can refer to the spiritual essence of the person that leaves the body at death.
God does not change the meaning of anything, but in the NT the idea of an essence of the person is more prominent.
A person has a body, a person is a soul.
In the NT souls of martyrs are in heaven and speak to God. (eg Rev 6:9-11)

One thing that I never get any JW to answer is how God can resurrect someone who is non existent. How is that not just making a copy of the person? A copy that is not the actual person. And I give the example of God making a body and putting my memories etc in the body so that it things it is me, and then when I, the original, comes along, I know that it is not me, it is only a copy.
The whole idea is nonsensical imo.

 

[Elihoenai]

There is a clash of cultural concepts that happened in Christianity. That is, three different concepts of "soul" were bastardized into one with the advent of Christianity, and over the years this bastardized concept has become an idea in its own right. Which three concepts?

1. The Greek concept of "psyche"... more related to "mind" in modern nomenclature.
2. The Latin/Roman concept of "anima." This is the ANIMAting force found in all living things. "Anima" is also the root of the word "animate" and "animals" (Animals are distinct from plants why? They are "animated." They appear to act of their own volition.) This concept doesn't have so much to do with mind but might be more related to spirit.
3. The concept of breath. This is the Hebrew concept. When a being is breathing, she is alive. When breathing stops... well, so does life. You see this concept first in Genesis where God breathed life into dust to create Adam.

Over time, with the dominance of Christianity, we can see why we have a bastardized idea of all these concepts. Christianity is a merger of Greek and Hebrew thought which was ultimately accepted by the citizens of Rome. Hence, understanding the true essence of these things requires that we stand back from all three of these traditions and try to make independent observations. Trying to work WITHIN, say, a Christian perspective and trying to get to the bottom of the issue will only lead you to a semantic maze... a maze constructed by history and tradition.

Christian Gnostics Stand Back From Hebrew and Greek Tradition Transcending the Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures and New Testament/Greek Scriptures Dichotomy. To find out the Real meaning of Soul and Spirit that Elohim/God teaches in the Holy Scriptures/Bible you must Embrace Christian Gnosticism.


Gnosticism

Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός, romanized: gnōstikós, Koine Greek: [ɣnostiˈkos], 'having knowledge') is a collection of religious ideas and systems that coalesced in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects. These various groups emphasized personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the proto-orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of religious institutions.

Gnosticism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gnosticism, the Enduring Heresy

 

[Soapy]

The soul and the spirit are not the same thing...thats why they are different words. "For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit" - Heb 4:12.

I think part of the issue is what you believe in your heart. It seems you think the soul and/or the spirit is an essence of our personality that remains after death. Thats not a scriptural teaching. The scriptures teach "the dead know nothing"- Eccl 9:5 "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten."

In the OT the soul is life or the life of a person or animal which you found to be true. You think God changed the meaning or the writers did but they didnt. You changed your understanding. If you keep the original meaning as you study scripture youll get the understanding of the verse. Previous verses referring to soul in the scriptures werent talking about the judgment seat like Jesus was‐thats why it can seem different. But its an illustrative point‐ the life(soul) living after the judgment is up to God, not man. Jesus point in Mt 10 is that his followers will be hated, even killed, but dont worry about it because there is a resurrection. Worry about being judged unrighteous and being destroyed.

Mt 10
"Further, brother will hand brother over to death, and a father his child, and children will rise up against parents and will have them put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives. 24 “A student is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25 It is enough for the student to become as his teacher, and the slave as his master. If people have called the master of the house Be·elʹze·bub, how much more those of his household? 26 So do not fear them, for there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, and nothing secret that will not become known. 27 What I tell you in the darkness, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, preach from the housetops. 28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna. 29 Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge. 30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 So have no fear; you are worth more than many sparrows."

I read a later post from Brian2 where he refers to the dead as ‘non-existent’. I have seen him use the same word and suggestion before and pointed it out to him that ‘Dead does not mean ‘non-existent’.

It makes me wonder why he keeps pressing this notion despite being advised of the facts. As far as I can ascertain, it might be because he is angry against some JW poster or JW text he read some place. He thereafter taunts every non-trinitarian post as if that post were from a JW.

To all: Please be aware of this little deception and oppose it.

To all: If you are JW, please explain more fully what your claim so Brian2 can confine his response she’s exactly to JW posters, and not everyone he feels he can get away with.

I see from Brian2’s early part of his post that he saw the truth that the Spirit does not die at death of the body.
He then sees that the Soul also does not ‘Die’ at death if the body.
He then does a classic self-con… He melds the two together resulting in:

• ’The Soul is the same as the Spirit because neither did at the death of the body’

This is the same false premise claims that treats Jesus as God:

• God is Lord
• Jesus is Lord
• Therefore Jesus is God

Trinitarian believe in this false claim because it feels ‘sweet’ to their false ideology. Of course, in both soul/spirit and Jesus/god situations we who know the truth also know by that truth that neither is true… we are not trying to usurp the glory and majesty of our only true God; YHWH, nor Diminish the sacrifice of our only human Lord, Jesus Christ. And we know that ‘Lord’ is just a title given to ANY PERSON OF GREAT REVERENCE…

so just because two (and more… Satan is also called ‘Lord’!!) persons does not mean they are the SAME PERSON… NOR does two things being ‘Not dead’ mean that those two things are THE SAME THING.

Can I show again in simplicity about Soul and Spirit:

1. A Soul of a man is his Spirit enlivening his body making the man a LIVING SOUL
2. Death is the separation of the Spirit from the body of the man
3. Because the Spirit is away from the body, the body cannot sustain itself and begins to decay to dust
4. The Spirit cannot DIE….It remains ‘NON-ACTIVE’, resting with God… God who created it
5. Only GOD can ‘kill’ the Spirit by DESTROYING IT
6. Now, as long as the SPIRIT is NOT DESTROYED the SOUL EXISTS but the Soul is non-active so it is a DORMANT SOUL - a Non-LIVING Soul (‘NON-LIVING DOES NOT MEAN DEAD!!)
7. ‘Dead’ is just a HUMAN TERM meaning that the Soul cannot communicate with another Soul nor anything else. Humans cry at a funeral because they are no longer able to communicate with their ‘passed’ relation. Tie this knowledge in with the thread where the incident of king Saul being fooled by the Witch of Endor concerning the voice of Samuel (did you see that one… it appears to be agreed that the living cannot communicate with the dead - nor vice versa!!)
8. So, death in the body - Spirit is not dead
9. Death in the body - SOUL is not dead
10. The SOUL is not DEAD exactly BECAUSE it’s spirit is not dead
11. How can the Soul be made ‘Dead’/Killed… ONLY IF GOD DESTROYS IT and then we see that even if the Spirif was still in the body when GOD DESTROYS THE SPIRIT, the body would ALSO be destroyed since there would be no Spirit to maintain it
12. Thus we have what Jesus said:
    1. Do not be afraid if he who can destroy the body but not the Soul [Because God can reconstitute your body and place your dormant Spirit back into it making you a LIVING SOUL again!]
    2. But fear him who can DESTROY both Soul and Body…

It seems that most posters MISS the difference between the words ‘KILL’ and ‘DESTROY’… perhaps, slack usage and lack of definition in spiritual matters cause them to see … wow, again… the two as the same things!!! They are not!!!

A soul nor the Spirit of the Soul cannot be killed nor DESTROYED by man. Man can only KILL the Body.

KILLING the body just puts the Soul in an UNLIVING state because the SPIRIT is dormant, resting with God.

When Adam was created, the body was LIFELESS - ADAM (see, he was given a name before he was even made ALIVE hence he was AN UNLIVING SOUL)

Then God put a SPIRIT into the body of the man Adam, and the man BECAME A LIVING SOUL.