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Are there Really any Innocents?

Does being a civilian make you an innocent in war times? (Read the OP first)


  • Total voters
    12

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
I've always wondered about the term "innocents" with regard to war.

One always speaks of innocent civilians and how an armed group should avoid harming them. But the question is, if you live in what you consider a democracy, are there really any innocents other than children? Are the innocents not the ones who chose the politicians? Who finance the army? How innocent are they really? Ignorant, maybe. But innocent?

I believe when you become an adult and thus a fully functional member of society your innocence is not merely tied to your ignorance or you lack of doing anything. I believe you actually have to work for your innocence. If your country conducts unjust wars in your name and by the means that you have given them (through the constitution, other laws and regulations, elections, financing through taxes etc.) then your silence or quiet disapproval does not earn you innocence.

Who, if a person came into their house and beats up their child while they did not try to do anything to prevent it, would call themselves innocent? Perhaps by the high standards of a court of law you might get away with calling yourself innocent - but certainly no other right thinking person would regard you as such.

I don't know what all the people in the world are fighting for in the various wars but I find it disingenuous when an aggrieved group of people fight by killing civilians that we find it easy to label it terrorism and say they are killing innocents. Often that group of people who fight by killing innocents don't have the fire power to match the enemy they are fighting against army for army and are doing what they can to shake their opposition.

In connection with this I am reminded of the anti-Apartheid struggle in South Africa. The ANC (the first liberation movement) was started in 1912. For decades they tried dialogue and other peaceful methods of engaging with the Apartheid government to try get freedom (one of their leaders - Albert Luthuli - even won the Nobel Peace prize). When Mandela came in he realised that this method was not working and started an armed wing of the party (Mkhonto we'Sizwe). Now it was clear that if the ANC gathered it's militia on a plain somewhere and declared war that they would be crushed by the nuclear armed South African defense forces. So what could they do? Well they engaged in guerilla warfare and bombed various places including a bank. Some civilians died - they were terrorists (the US recently removed Mandela from their list of terrorists).
The armed struggle was not intended to defeat the defense force by might of arms. It was meant to degrade the morale of the opposition, to make the lives of white people whose government was oppressing blacks as difficult and uncomfortable as possible so that they start seriously considering the plight of black people.

I do not believe in intentionally killing civilians a group is necessarily killing innocents. Being a civilian does not make you innocent (even if you're ignorant), especially if you live in what can be described as a democracy.

Of course there are. Anyone who does not pick up arms or supports armies financially and via other methods is an innocent.
 

Tomorrows_Child

Active Member
So the citizens of a country are not innocent since they fund their army right?

Well they do so via an income tax, which isn't just for the army but (in Britain anyway) also for health care and social benefits. It is compulsory obligation and one punishable by the full extent of the law. So yes, they are innocent.

What I meant by funding was those individuals who own major corporations and actively fund armies and then profit off of said wars.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
Well they do so via an income tax, which isn't just for the army but (in Britain anyway) also for health care and social benefits. It is compulsory obligation and one punishable by the full extent of the law. So yes, they are innocent.

What I meant by funding was those individuals who own major corporations and actively fund armies and then profit off of said wars.

By the full extent of the law they created through their elected representatives right?
 
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