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Are u going to leave USA now?

catch22

Active Member
No, I'm not going to leave. This is my home. I think abandonment doesn't help anything. Also, there's really no where to go but the muslim world, probably, and they'll just cut my head off at some point.

I'll stay here, and pray, as usual. The topics might change a little, but things like this prompt me to keep praying, which is ultimately a good thing. I just wish it wasn't for the reasons it was (that is, straying from God's plan for us).
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No, I'm not going to leave. This is my home. I think abandonment doesn't help anything. Also, there's really no where to go but the muslim world, probably, and they'll just cut my head off at some point.

I'll stay here, and pray, as usual. The topics might change a little, but things like this prompt me to keep praying, which is ultimately a good thing. I just wish it wasn't for the reasons it was (that is, straying from God's plan for us).
Let me be the first to welcome you to staying here!
(We all have our political battles to fight.)
 

dust1n

Zindīq
It may, to a certain extent. But I hardly think it's the primary cause. Risky sexual behavior can do that on its own.

The "it's because of discrimination" excuse doesn't seem to hold water since the same holds true even in those societies where there's a high acceptance of homosexuality, such as in Northwestern Europe.

But the study you quoted:


Disparities in mental health in relation to sexual orientation are primarily understood as a consequence of so-called minority stress.3,13 Minority stress involves a distal–proximal dimension, with stress resulting from objective, external events and conditions, the expectations of such events and the vigilance this expectation requires, the internalization of negative social attitudes, and the concealment of one’s sexual orientation. Findings in samples of gay and lesbian men and women that experiences of stigma, prejudice, and discrimination were indeed related to mental health status support this model.1320

Gay and lesbian people might also be at an increased risk for physical health problems for several reasons. First of all, just as positive emotional states may promote physical well-being,21 mental health problems such as depression might negatively affect one’s physical health via immune functioning.2225 Studies in other minority groups suggest that physical health problems could result from discrimination, independently from associated socioeconomic factors.2628 The most likely pathways for such negative effects in gay and lesbian persons are socially inflicted trauma and inadequate health care.2932 Differences in physical health might also result from various lifestyle factors. Alcohol use might be more encouraged in the gay community than among heterosexual people. The fact that lesbian women are less likely to bear children than heterosexual women might result in increased risk for breast cancer in lesbian women.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Lol. No, I already know that. It's much more difficult to create a penis than a vagina. But I was talking about having real-deal male organs. That would involve growing organs in a dish, though. Science isn't really there yet although there has been some advances in that.
Man, you are like a walking advertisement for Sigmund Freud.

(I better not have to explain this joke to anyone T_T )
 

catch22

Active Member
I'm not sure if this helps the conversation, I'm rather late to it and haven't read a majority of the debate here...

But, having a degree in Anthro from a top 10 accredited university in the United States, I'll just say my decade old education tells me there's nothing beyond developmental process that "determines" homosexuality. So, for example, it's a preference akin to liking red meat, or the color blue, etc. It was (at the time of my degree), thought to be an in utero stage of development when identities of likes and dislikes are established. Mild correlation was theorized with stress or other factors on the mother during pregnancy to increase or decrease this particular like/dislike. I suppose I mean to say I am highly skeptical of a "gay gene" or some other strongly deterministic reason for someone to prefer things that way than the "natural" way.

I "hate" gay people no more than I hate people who like the color purple. It's arbitrary if you think about it. Makes no sense.

On the other hand, I personally think it's a spiritual issue rooted somewhere in pride, rebellion, or lust. All sin is the same in this regard, from the adulterer to the fornicator to the murderer to the thief. All of that said, living a certain way harbors addiction toward said thing, forms pathways for pleasure rooted therein. While a tall mountain to topple, I do believe one can alter their preferences in such an arena. Most of you know something about this. You loved kool-aid as a child but now it's just too sweet, so you have no desire to drink it anymore. Etc.

I dunno. I'm really just rambling now. Sorry.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
On the other hand, I personally think it's a spiritual issue rooted somewhere in pride, rebellion, or lust. All sin is the same in this regard, from the adulterer to the fornicator to the murderer to the thief.

I wholeheartedly disagree with that, at least for myself. As a child and preteen I was raised in the Catholic Church and for a kid I was very religious and serious about it. But I liked boys. I had no idea why, I just did. Coming into puberty I was more attracted to them, something about another boy becoming a man. But I was pretty ignorant about sex. I never got the talk from my parents, I relied on the encyclopedias at the library. My first time flying solo (awkwardly I might add) was because I was aroused by an image of a man and ran with it. As I became more proficient, it was always because of a picture or thought of another boy or a man. I didn't even know any of it was considered a sin until much later on.
 

catch22

Active Member
I wholeheartedly disagree with that, at least for myself. As a child and preteen I was raised in the Catholic Church and for a kid I was very religious and serious about it. But I liked boys. I had no idea why, I just did. Coming into puberty I was more attracted to them, something about another boy becoming a man. But I was pretty ignorant about sex. I never got the talk from my parents, I relied on the encyclopedias at the library. My first time flying solo (awkwardly I might add) was because I was aroused by an image of a man and ran with it. As I became more proficient, it was always because of a picture or thought of another boy or a man. I didn't even know any of it was considered a sin until much later on.

While insightful for the condition of being born into sin, it doesn't preclude the fact. The serial killer probably has a similar story. Before you take that for me throwing you into the lot with serial killers based on your sexual preference, try to realize sin is just sin, I'm not isolating yours in particular or making a statement about you personally. Hetero men looking at pictures of women is directly addressed by Christ (Matthew 5:28), and that is a sin as well, whether they realized it at the time or not. Despite their age...

It only means the condition of sin is real and we're all fallen to it. Just because you didn't recognize it as sin, doesn't mean anything. In America we have strict liability laws, for which you can be prosecuted regardless of your knowledge of them or not. Your understanding of it isn't a requisite. In fact, the enemy would prefer you not realize it.

There's good news, though. You don't have to die in that sin. Nor did I have to die to my lust of looking at women and desiring them, when they weren't my wife. Nor does anyone have to die to their sin. Heck, even Jeffry Dahmer avoided the penalty of death, if the stories are true... only God knows for sure.

Back to my assessment about it being a spiritual condition rooted in pride and what not.... You said you learned it was a sin later on, so you know? But, have you turned from it? If so, great. But if not, how come? That's what I was talking about, if that be the case.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
While insightful for the condition of being born into sin, it doesn't preclude the fact. The serial killer probably has a similar story. Before you take that for me throwing you into the lot with serial killers based on your sexual preference, try to realize sin is just sin, I'm not isolating yours in particular or making a statement about you personally. Hetero men looking at pictures of women is directly addressed by Christ (Matthew 5:28), and that is a sin as well, whether they realized it at the time or not. Despite their age...

It only means the condition of sin is real and we're all fallen to it. Just because you didn't recognize it as sin, doesn't mean anything. In America we have strict liability laws, for which you can be prosecuted regardless of your knowledge of them or not. Your understanding of it isn't a requisite. In fact, the enemy would prefer you not realize it.

There's good news, though. You don't have to die in that sin. Nor did I have to die to my lust of looking at women and desiring them, when they weren't my wife. Nor does anyone have to die to their sin. Heck, even Jeffry Dahmer avoided the penalty of death, if the stories are true... only God knows for sure.

Back to my assessment about it being a spiritual condition rooted in pride and what not.... You said you learned it was a sin later on, so you know? But, have you turned from it? If so, great. But if not, how come? That's what I was talking about, if that be the case.
Your concept of "sin" is analogous to my concept of "evil", which is secular rather than religious.
Sin is much broader than evil, which I narrowly define from a libertarian perspective, ie, don't harm others.
So things like gay marriage, blasphemy, gay sex, graven image worship, pornography are all OK, despite being "sinful".
Evil includes things like murder, oppression, assault, theft....all things you'd consider sin.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I "hate" gay people no more than I hate people who like the color purple. It's arbitrary if you think about it. Makes no sense.
You say this, then you turn right around and say:
On the other hand, I personally think it's a spiritual issue rooted somewhere in pride, rebellion, or lust. All sin is the same in this regard, from the adulterer to the fornicator to the murderer to the thief. All of that said, living a certain way harbors addiction toward said thing, forms pathways for pleasure rooted therein.
While I appreciate your attempt to objectify sin, where I think your argument fails is where you compare homosexuals to "people who like purple," but then fail to carry the "liking of purple" through to the next necessary step of identifying that quality as sinful. If you're going to compare homosexuals to "people who like purple," then if you're not going to identify "liking purple" as "sin," you can't identify homosexuals as "sin," either.

So, which is it? Is homosexuality the same as "liking purple," and is "liking purple" the same as "murder?" Or is there some fundamental difference between a preference and a heinous, sinful act?
I do believe one can alter their preferences in such an arena.
It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what science can show. For decades, the mental health sciences has identified homosexuality as normal. And the mental health sciences have concluded that attempts to alter one's sexual preferences causes harm and Does. Not. Work.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
While insightful for the condition of being born into sin, it doesn't preclude the fact. The serial killer probably has a similar story. Before you take that for me throwing you into the lot with serial killers based on your sexual preference, try to realize sin is just sin, I'm not isolating yours in particular or making a statement about you personally. Hetero men looking at pictures of women is directly addressed by Christ (Matthew 5:28), and that is a sin as well, whether they realized it at the time or not. Despite their age...

It only means the condition of sin is real and we're all fallen to it. Just because you didn't recognize it as sin, doesn't mean anything. In America we have strict liability laws, for which you can be prosecuted regardless of your knowledge of them or not. Your understanding of it isn't a requisite. In fact, the enemy would prefer you not realize it.
Mkay... What's "sin?" And (just for funzies), I'd really like for you to point out exactly where in the bible homosexuality is targeted as "sin." You can't, because it ain't in there. Homosexuality is not addressed anywhere in scripture. And to interpret the few passages that anti-homosexuality folks usually trot out as such is simply poor and irresponsible interpretation of the texts.

What you're doing here is subtly telling those who identify as homosexual, that they are sin (since that's how they identify). That's dehumanizing and dehumanization is violence.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You said you learned it was a sin later on, so you know? But, have you turned from it? If so, great. But if not, how come? That's what I was talking about, if that be the case.
Other religions might consider your belief in Jesus to be a sin. Have you turned from that? If so, great. If not, how come?
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
Leviticus says nothing about "murdering male homosexuals." At all. And to spin it that way just to discredit the religion is disinenuous, petty, and irresponsible.

Leviticus 20:13, as interpreted by religious traditionalists for at least a couple thousand years now, imposes the death penalty for at least some forms of male homosexual sex. So I believe it does address the murder of male homosexuals.

It is not disingenuous. I am very sincere about that text. Nor is it petty and irresponsible; this is text that many Christians and Jews consider divinely inspired, a directive from Yahweh. The reformist rehabilitation of Abrahamic homophobia is, while politically welcome, on less solid ground at least as a matter of interpretive tradition and historical understanding of that text from the Second Temple period onwards.
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Back to my assessment about it being a spiritual condition rooted in pride and what not.... You said you learned it was a sin later on, so you know? But, have you turned from it? If so, great. But if not, how come? That's what I was talking about, if that be the case.

I turned away from what made me think it was a sin at the time. I rejected the Catholic Church, and Christianity as a whole many years ago. I am better for it because it's not a sin. In fact, I don't believe in sin at all anymore. It took me a long time to recover from that indoctrination.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I turned away from what made me think it was a sin at the time. I rejected the Catholic Church, and Christianity as a whole many years ago. I am better for it because it's not a sin. In fact, I don't believe in sin at all anymore. It took me a long time to recover from that indoctrination.
Congrats on your recovery!
 

Jainarayan

ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
Staff member
Premium Member
Congrats on your recovery!
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fLbOdo97Kuwh4jP3knhtoSpfb+8PMRj49T0B9a9LjC4AAAGwA2AA6VW1Frm2OZ5CtHfsrThSG3UgtqwAMEkbb+X1FbO4fPMZG5884IwMdd/wBKjQnPeyBcrlXckkMwCk+EKPd3I3weXpWHJlJqX8r8c360NineS3kzdZWjQDkFi8AwfiG+tdckYkuFQBjoUY0+b4JOdtx4eo2J+FZHYze0Qn8Wpj1zrOon6muPZ1865nAyup98ghmGFUjnnHkOnWue/bXVvzTPvr1TJ3i96gGlHAKblMnBGWC7E5wOprecOi1MAyaFSMAJnIw+3yOEI+dRVz449i4kYEDxnSdhq1jcZDbh8Dbb1mnD92kYjG6r8lUHP1Y1P8bkyzttZc3mOmRw18RhCcsngJ5508ifUjB+dc5xlTtnbl543rGLaJNgPvBnngkrgf5SPpXcHzuAR8f9/Gu1y11WE3eLq0FVOcb+Xp0+FY3Gk8HpWr4R2jQ3MtqQFKSNo32Yczj94HIx1HwqTkVFm02WfVW9ouJSQREK2pCfdz4l9Af2fSufs84pFLI2pwHIwqnrn1865dqLXRKyk9Tj4Heqi7TXHdyFUOk5zscYx5Ect6Yzxf8AD0/ZgIgXPLP61o+0s2lRsGU7MD/r0rz3Z9ur+LlcufR8N/mrdRe1e8xiRYpB6qRn44NTMdK2JpNxRVZlinCecNwvh+TDIrgl1jfu4U/ejlGn44qtuKdqhMdQgEbdcSMVP8LDb61rZONyHkFHyzV1tTSfe0fjqG0EAYMzspODyCb1V1c5ZSxyxJPma4UQUpSgUpSgUpSgy+F8MluZBFBG0kjclUZO3X0Hqa9C+zT2ex2MQlmUPdOvjzgiMHnGuMj4t1+FVB2A7eNwwuBBHKshGo+7Jt0Em+w54I51avCvaHDfyx6HuraNEk77REHw7PAsWXCOAuO9325b1TLd8iYm1xbIpJRQGOMkeQ6VlWTbYzUY7WR/Z3hjS7uzNJLbg+FGURyzxxMS4h0qfFgZPPHOsq14bJ/WM1v9ruNCW0Mo/uc6pJJlOT3XLEa/nSYaMrtJq+EVEewffXtuZpbyYeMRroESjwRxq2cxHLGTvD5eVdnZ5J557iCS6mX7OWUMoiBbVPcaS2YyCe7EY2xyNTpTSF+1b2aNKUn4fAgbxd7GmFLZIwyrsM88457c6pniHDpYHKTRvEw6OpU/nXoa8N5DZWcj3k/fyXcVvL4YQuGmeNtI7rbYbfzrM7SdkUuJZlvZ5pLOCBZfF3QIcmXUQ4iBACINh+1Upm3mOrm9gXZYl5LyaMGPTohLAEMc+Jlz5acZ9TXd2c9l9nJLDHcLKjT2nfKBJurq41oTjfCyxf4W+Ui4Rwq5trThdrHdyxTTkhgFiKoiJJK5VWjyT7qgk82B35UqVhvJoHu59FG/0rDuONxR++SvqVOPrjaopx2KSO3vZbS9uu9syyyCYpIj6Y0kYqCvhIV8gjA1DcEVsL3hjm/htjd3Bjkt55Gz3OdUbwKMHuthiRvyqvWo0krvqG3VQdvWoXLG8KTugbuymFLNjGdzt72N9hk8jv0re9nJybfErl9M9zCGbALCK6mhQHSAM6UUZxWn4Fax3iTRyXN2JY8NPGVVAusyAaS0O6/dsMqT7tZZ8Uzsv6aYZdWgtJl/q+Jl1aTEnevvjU2F0Dbyzy8q2VrLHBa94iI7mVEiDdDIfPfA3c4rC4NZRz2l8YLi4+zWwD2uVRMgW6yaiHiDN4y2CegHxrlxeyaG04eiXE2b57dGB0c52jZmUrGCGw0h543NP8V3uLTkn5bHs6gdysot5cqSWWNF0FCq4OM6gS3ntipD2buNcOcFfE+Af2WOpSP3SjKQOlaXtFwn7BAJIZ5nHfRRyJIY3BExCAE93kYZ0bn09a5rweeNuHd3dXAjnOiYYiJ2tXdCD3XhAMQHrkVphhZPVOTLt8bziEJPTVgjlsQGODjyODzzWZCuFAwRgDY71DrKOeR+Kqbu4P2VtMWO55GESeL7rc6jWRPFdRyWkH2qV53t5ZJtQi0ArGEGFVARmaQEbnaNhvVtM9K77Q28q8UWIg94Z0cFc+JWk1hgPQZ2+NXjUDg7PNetwq6+0T4ZGaUnutaEIGCgiMY0yjBByK7rQFoprme9uzbi5MEKxmNG2mW31s6IC2ZMnyC+dJjppnlctbdHtNGgRyeYZT8t/wCdee+NS6pmJ9P0r0hN2Ve4ubi1urmaWCOKGWHHdq/3jTqwdgniI7sYO2xGcneqw7VdibaHglvfr3hnlMWolsr4w2cLjblUyaVnxWFKtfgHs+tbrghvF7z7SNQOH8OVl0+7j9jB51MpPY9wwXMcP3/ihlkP3oz4HhUfh/fNSPO1KuThfYrg91xMWlu8zokUxmyzKVkjkjUAFkGRu3LPSs3i/sv4YIWuYXnCW84jnV2GCqSrHIQdOQQCWB64x12CjqVfF57JrCCW9km777NBbxypiTcnExcE6d/7tdv3qoegUpSgUpSgUpSgVLezfauZO5tY1ijiaSMPpXxPllBZmJ3P6dKiVdtrOY3V195GDD4qcj9KD0B7Vb104vwpFOFlkgDjzC3UTj6ECrIh4rqvZbbQBogil153PePKunGOnd5znrXlnjvby7u7i3uZihktmVoyEAAKsHGR13ArZx+1niIuHuA0XePGkZ+7GNMbOw288u29BdvYDhjjhdmEKj74zNnIyrTSPgY64IFd3ArcxcX4q2+His5AM/uzKceW6GqBm9o960NvCWj0WzxSRgRjOqDdcnr6+dbng/tXuTdPLcOFEsaRO0cSZAjMhXwtn/zW9eXlQXB2/nWS1sJExpkvrJxjr3kmrPzzmt32ri+0295ap/eGDI9dfeBQfQmMgjyNVxw+eK4t4IEvXeG2aF4sLFqHc7oGOnpjkfKphY2kjzNci8kDmNYm+7h04VmcbaOeXbf1qNj5PdiZOHXsew72E45ZS7XuivyMinH7ldXFG1cctSThYVEaD1uILx3P0t4wPgazouCqLdLdZWGh1kV8LnKS98PDjTjO2Mcqxr/gKsXkmuJDKxiZJVCI0TQd5pZQFxykYEMCCCRUbVlYN/tZ9oidsvP+dlAK394P+17Y9Psd1/8ALa1DuP3jTIYbi7M8JPijjiWHvMchI4JJXlsunOPKobxn2mXNrH3FvdmTSulS0aPIg5YM2wYjzKk7bmplWT7hfHo0jnR3aPTeXukrGx1/2m5kZQxXSTpyeewB8qy+xd931xfvodAbe2xrUqxBkvyGIKr59B0881Wvs04/cXIt7OOF5jam4umIdAztKHiG7so0jvySSSST5CpdZzcQN7dpFDKjrb26yDFsSSWnZWOqbTpIeT3TnIHKo1q7GR7IrsxcMnlK57uJX0nbUEiJAzjkQOeK33Gj9pl4I+nTrlMunmFxaySAZx0OBmoDwn7db2t5GUlW3gzDOR9nd1SOJSw8UnvCNxjTkZxtzra33E7y1ls4mW5zpK2ad3au76VjRgdDkDCvnUcDGTtg5SpqT9uuFueHcWLsDrJnj0k5QQQwEA+Ta4C23mKkHDrxB9khPvPAZF/5QhQ/P74fnVdul1ax3T34nihu2JmkQW0qLrjWLxgeJAQAMgEDIyetd8z3PfWLaL0SiOVbcf2HDKyIXD4k/ZRTv1FShvezNwI7njchGQkyMR5hbdDj8q7+IN3fE0ceJbq1AU88G2csQD+8s+cfuGtfwXhEj/bG76eJriQrOjpbk6lRU2KBlA0kcjWJ2hgltYbeRpWnFnImhWVVJBjeHd0UHOls/HGaWo++NjwviBtbLihQZ+yyXLxj/iRJdY9MPMw+VamCx7ngiwKS/dXyJnmTp4iu5/WsjhRTiMd4sc7xLc/38QEbEaokgyGK5wVjG/nmt2eCyxySPa3JgEranjaNZYy2AC6glSrHAzhsEjOM02XzytjG4/rC4Gd/slucf826qru3m3ZezB2OYNj8HrN9oRl4Wg4hFcSPePIsbyPp0OhBPddyBpCLpyMbgknJyaqPtd26vOJBFuXXQm6xooVQeWrHMnBxudunM1KVu/0fZe+4bcwE+7MfpIi/zU1M47vVxxo+kdgD85J9/wAlFebeyHba64Z3n2ZlHe6dQZdXuasYzy941sIPabfpdyXgaPvpI1jY92NOlSCML0O1BbHZbiLT8eObH7GEguUDaSBPiaP7zOhc8x58+dZXbxzc8G4jp+47meYERgAS91KM69s+LmcEb+Y2qpZfa1xFp45y0XeRpIi/djGJTGWyPP7tfzrCuPaNevb3FuzR93cNI8ngGcynU2D03oLY9oPHJG7NQyH37mO2RyP3gGb66CP4jXnmpJxPttdXFlFYyFO4i0aQEAb7sEDLddjUboFKUoFKUoFKUoFKUoFKUoFKUoO62uXjOpGKn0P6+dTrsl7QmgDJKWwwAzzAx18x+dV/Sgvebt3qiR4n0yADPIjI655FSKi/GvaAx9+UysfwoQAPQkbCqwpUSQbri/aWacFc6E/ZXr8W5n9K0tKVIt3+jov9tkPnBOP8Mlp/+vzq7bNUEouBjVdrCh/5STyD8mP51SHsEuGjnkk7qR0SOVSY1DEGZrYqCMjbELfSrEsb2fTw8PazjuJ53kwoOF7q6ijx4tye9QkdPlUbg6r7/uHaH/jXP/1Let5xFQeJ8LyOVvekem1qP0JqNRXu3EIZ7e5+zcQaSSOSGMySANHHCwaJQWU7KwOGG5zjBrL4nxK5e7tryK0m+z2iuhRwEnmFwAGMcTEEaDHGcPpLZYDlvOxGOOdqGii41am2uJhLPc4mVdUUWqKNQHb8OnTqPoRVmwWkTNw93kCyRo3dplR3muEBsA7nSN9qifEm7y2vrayt7syXzyPI1xE0McXeoqMQzqpYaU2VQxyeeK2Mt1IZuHP9muMW6yCTwDbVCEGPFvv5UNtnwpx3t3zyLhs+W6R119reFNdWskSEBtmXPIlTnGemeWfWujhnEF1Sucx95MzfeDGAQiqWGdskECt2kwORnlz/AFqtU3q7VJ7KiYuISIxwzRMGQg5Uxsp/m1XBUX4lBAl7bzov3760JGwZdO7NtuRsBy51urrikSDdwD/v9OdVWzy7Xaq/6Q/EMR2sA6s8h/hAUf5mqkqmftZ42briMhz4Igsab52AyT8yTUMrSEKUpRJSlKBSlKBSlKBSlKBSlKBSlKBSlKBSlKBSlKBSlKBSlKC8P6PqsILogA5kQc8HZT6etWF3t6NQEMeM+Hx6tvU5X9OtKVXUV2wXtb7MYCAKmcaWTIyMb6idQIJ+eK+SW1+ykNqJ6FWReuzHDjcDp8K+0rOxbbrj4deZye935jvV8xybXtjfoM7Z6kybhwk7te998DBzjJwSATp2yRjONs0pUzDrl9quWW44twuIliY1JY5OetdyWiDko+lKVfSj6bdc50rnzwM/WtZxKO5LYjgtnj2yZHYMQcZwojIH1pSmlo82+0aEDid2qABVkIAGw2AFRvQaUqy8fCK+UpQKUpQT634HwgaWa6mYYVmUo2MErkEhAdgcbH/r0DgfCt/7XMNJwfCeunDD7r1xj552wVKDu/8A57hOcC7n5jLaDyI1cu759OfM55CuEfAuEl9P2ucYLZ8B6ch/d89+f7p89lKCN9orK3idBbytIpjRmLgghjnIxpG3I9efOlKUH//Z
Thank-you-very-much.png
 

catch22

Active Member
You say this, then you turn right around and say:

While I appreciate your attempt to objectify sin, where I think your argument fails is where you compare homosexuals to "people who like purple," but then fail to carry the "liking of purple" through to the next necessary step of identifying that quality as sinful. If you're going to compare homosexuals to "people who like purple," then if you're not going to identify "liking purple" as "sin," you can't identify homosexuals as "sin," either.

So, which is it? Is homosexuality the same as "liking purple," and is "liking purple" the same as "murder?" Or is there some fundamental difference between a preference and a heinous, sinful act?

It doesn't matter what you believe. What matters is what science can show. For decades, the mental health sciences has identified homosexuality as normal. And the mental health sciences have concluded that attempts to alter one's sexual preferences causes harm and Does. Not. Work.

You... missed the point. The plainness of the color example was simply equating the emotion of hating someone based on their preference of what is appealing to them. That paragraph wasn't about sin. The followup was, so let's move on.

Mkay... What's "sin?" And (just for funzies), I'd really like for you to point out exactly where in the bible homosexuality is targeted as "sin." You can't, because it ain't in there. Homosexuality is not addressed anywhere in scripture. And to interpret the few passages that anti-homosexuality folks usually trot out as such is simply poor and irresponsible interpretation of the texts.

What you're doing here is subtly telling those who identify as homosexual, that they are sin (since that's how they identify). That's dehumanizing and dehumanization is violence.

Sin is transgression against God's law and/or rebellion against God. You could also say, as some do, that it is also "missing the mark," or coming up short on the plans God has for our lives, but that's more a new covenant idea I think. Both are valid, in my opinion. If God is holy and righteous, and we do not live up to His holy righteousness, then sin is among us. If there were no sin among us, we wouldn't need a savior, and we could dwell with God right now. Atonement wouldn't be necessary, etc.

As for homosexuality in the Bible, the actual list of citations would be extensive. Anywhere sexual immorality is referenced in the New Testament, for example, would be speaking against homosexuality. It is specifically addressed in a few locations. Beginning in the OT, the common reference of Leviticus 20:13 stands, but even the New Testament directly frames it in Romans 1:18-32, for example. Verse 26-27 being key. There's many more, if you really want the whole list, google would probably be better for brevity. I will compile it for you, if you insist.

There wasn't necessarily a "gay" lifestyle in those times as we have now, so the language or verbiage may seem different, but contextually, they are describing what we call know as that lifestyle/act now.

As for me saying people who identify as homosexuals are the embodiment of sin, I'm not sure why you think that. I was pretty clear all of us sin and fall short of the glory of God, hence why we need a savior. Me, you, the gay gentlemen who was kind enough to share his story. I wasn't isolating him in mockery or anything. Sin is serious. His is not necessarily any worse than any other. We all suffer from it. But we don't need to. That's what I was saying.

Other religions might consider your belief in Jesus to be a sin. Have you turned from that? If so, great. If not, how come?

Maybe so. No, I haven't. Because, He is my Lord, my Savior, my God, and told me to keep His commandments. So that's what I do.
 

catch22

Active Member
I turned away from what made me think it was a sin at the time. I rejected the Catholic Church, and Christianity as a whole many years ago. I am better for it because it's not a sin. In fact, I don't believe in sin at all anymore. It took me a long time to recover from that indoctrination.

Alright. Though, I think if you go back to what you originally disagreed with in my earlier post, you'll see now why I said what I said. To me, this answer reflects my statements.
 

catch22

Active Member
Your concept of "sin" is analogous to my concept of "evil", which is secular rather than religious.
Sin is much broader than evil, which I narrowly define from a libertarian perspective, ie, don't harm others.
So things like gay marriage, blasphemy, gay sex, graven image worship, pornography are all OK, despite being "sinful".
Evil includes things like murder, oppression, assault, theft....all things you'd consider sin.

Interesting. I suppose if you don't see God as I do, things like worshiping graven images and blasphemy wouldn't make sense. Your harm/no-harm list doesn't apply to me. All of those things are harmful to someone. This includes the person performing or partaking in the act.

So, worshiping a graven image, while it "harms" no one else, it harms the person doing the worshiping. To make a secular example, this would be akin to doing nothing for drug addicts on the premise that it hurts no one but them. Even to the point where they kill themselves as a result. I'm not sure it's a superior moral code, but in a strictly pragmatic/secular society, morality need not apply or be present for common-good law (I think...)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Leviticus 20:13, as interpreted by religious traditionalists for at least a couple thousand years now, imposes the death penalty for at least some forms of male homosexual sex. So I believe it does address the murder of male homosexuals.

It is not disingenuous. I am very sincere about that text. Nor is it petty and irresponsible; this is text that many Christians and Jews consider divinely inspired, a directive from Yahweh. The reformist rehabilitation of Abrahamic homophobia is, while politically welcome, on less solid ground at least as a matter of interpretive tradition and historical understanding of that text from the Second Temple period onwards.
The Leviticus text doesn't involve homosexuality -- and we're not at all sure what kind of male/male contact they're talking about -- only sure that they're not not talking about an act of love, since such an act would have been unheard of in that time and place. To insist that a modern interpretation be superimposed upon an ancient text, and then to insist that that particular interpretation is what "God said" is disingenuous and irresponsible, for the resulting interpretation is eisegetical, not exegetical.
 

catch22

Active Member
Like I said, there's no language in those societies for what you consider a gay/queer/homosexual life style now. It says two men lying together, as a man lies with a woman, is an abomination. It's clear to everyone but you, apparently.
 
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