Are u going to leave USA now?

[Shadow Wolf]

in the u.s, its legal to marry anything with a hole

Get back with me when you can marry a doughnut, a car, a dog, a bottle, or a child.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

You can have Ken Ham back.
But we aren't paying you extortion money.
Tom

We..we...have to take Ham back? Please God no. What if we give you New Zealand as a peace offering?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

in the u.s, its legal to marry anything with a hole

Times are crazy when you can marry men and women, right? I mean...you do realise homosexuals are men and and women I suppose?

I thought you might have forgotten that in your attempt to dehumanise them.

 

[dust1n]

The believers I like are the ones who don't let their scripture be a source, expression or vehicle for hatred.
I can live with a scriptural disapproval which is without oppression & hatred towards us sinners.
You know the old expression...."Love the sinner....hate the sin". That works for me.

I've heard the old saying. I'm not sure I've actually ever seen it before, but I'm familiar.

I know that some people feel bad because of this disapproval, & that some will even see disapproval as an attack.
They need more self confidence, & thicker skins.
Thus, we may be friends with people who we think are deluded, & who think we are sinners.
After all, we disagree primarily over things which don't even exist! (That always gets a chuckle from me fundie friends.)

It seems to me, often, that homosexuality is a sin classified as its own. It appears my sins are generally easily passable, while homosexuality seems to be issue, something that has to be legislated against or contained in some way. Perhaps that's just a product of this current time, what with all the yelling.

 

[Revoltingest]

It seems to me, often, that homosexuality is a sin classified as its own. It appears my sins are generally easily passable, while homosexuality seems to be issue, something that has to be legislated against or contained in some way. Perhaps that's just a product of this current time, what with all the yelling.

Fortunately, the gay agenda is winning the public relations & legal wars.

 

[dust1n]

Fine. You don't watch the news, I guess.

Please provide a link from the news that says the government is coming after preachers.

 

[dust1n]

Fortunately, the gay agenda is winning the public relations & legal wars.

Well, now that they've eliminated all the Christian fundamentalists off, and persecuted them out of existence, so that God will finally leave the country...

 

[dust1n]

Why is it bad? How does it affect you such that it is bad? I don't like the word bad but I am using it as you have here. Please explain, exactly if you can, what the concept of gay marriage would do to affect you in such a 'bad' manner?

I didn't mean to imply that I feel that way. I meant to imply that no matter the reasoning or legality of same sex marriage or any argument presented, it won't really matter, because people want to believe it is wrong, not actually know the truth or care for people.

 

[viole]

Yeah, not so much. That's an odd way of thinking about it. Convenient, I suppose, but very dangerous. Not saying I'm less guilty than the next person in areas like this, but I would think we'd honestly strive to be more wholistic in our approach to the bible everyday, not just go with what "feels" better day-in, day-out. I think that's really missing the point.

The question is: dangerous to whom? x says that y views of the Bible are dangerous, while y says the contrary is true. And there are many different x and y, just within Christianity. If you are born in Sweden, you can grow up under the impression that gay marriages are a no issue in Christianity. If you grow up in Uganda, maybe less so. Both believe in Jesus and both are sure to be right.

Again, Scripture is not supportive to resolve the issue. Even if we forget the OT and its weird laws, we are left with St. Paul whose moral authority is questionable, to say the least, considering his opinion on women.

But even if we grant that the NT claims you should not allow gay marriages, we have other form of marriages that are much more clearly forbidden. For instance, the marriage between a Christian and a non Christian. Which begs the question: why isn't there the same amount of outrage from the Christian community concerning weddings between Christians and atheists or buddhists? Why don't Christians try, with comparable energy, to forbid them, too?

I think it is obvious that what the Bible say is not so relevant. It is homosexuality that is singled out for extra biblical reasons. God is just an excuse, mainly used to defuse accusations of discrimination. It has already been done in the past with other forms of discrimination.

I sometimes ask for rain, since we're under a heavy drought where I'm from. Most of the time I pray about my family, my country, my friends, people on this forum, people at work, and just people in general I encounter. Issues I'm having and struggling with... anything you'd talk to your mom or dad or best friend about, I suppose. It's not actually all that different, just more intimate because, you know, there's nothing to hide. Naked before the Lord and all that.

If there is nothing to hide, and you are naked before God, I don't see what praying can bring. God already knows what you wish.

But honestly, I have problems to identify praying with a personal relationship. I can implore my landlord to reduce the rent. That does not entail that I have a personal relationship with him.

But, most of the time it's just praise and glory. And lots of thanksgiving.

I am sure God feels very motivated and Ego boosted by hearing all the time how glorious He is (I hope you indulge my pseudo humor).

But this begs another question: if you thank God for making it rain, shouldn't the child in Africa, whose eyes are being eaten by a parasite until he is blind, despite all prayers, curse Him? Or should we always thank Him, no matter what? In case of the latter, why not just simply remind Him (as if He needed to) to implement His Will, no matter what it is?

You'd put too much stock in humans if you rely on them solely for your understanding about God. It's better to rely on God for that. Humans are quite fallible, if that's what you're alluding too. On the other hand, to think oneself important enough to put a dent in God's plan (positively or negatively) is arrogance somewhere in the realm of incomprehensible. We're vessels for His good work, and therein lies joy. However, key word here: His. It's all His. Sometimes we get caught up in our role, and forget about the bigger picture. Alas, it happens to all of us.

Blessings!

Yes, but humanity is all I see and hear. God is not very loquacious, I am afraid. Not with me, and not with them, for the above reasons. And to say that humans are fallible concerning God undermines any objectivity of their testimony, if any.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Jainarayan]

So why is marriage a "right"?

Because the US Supreme Court said so in Loving v. Virginia.

 

[Debater Slayer]

You know, sometimes I tell myself, "DS, maybe you're wrong about organized religion. Just think about it more... give it another chance," and then I run into threads like this one. Nope. Still skeptical and anti-religious after reading them. They only serve to cement my position.

 

[catch22]

The question is: dangerous to whom? x says that y views of the Bible are dangerous, while y says the contrary is true. And there are many different x and y, just within Christianity. If you are born in Sweden, you can grow up under the impression that gay marriages are a no issue in Christianity. If you grow up in Uganda, maybe less so. Both believe in Jesus and both are sure to be right.

Again, Scripture is not supportive to resolve the issue. Even if we forget the OT and its weird laws, we are left with St. Paul whose moral authority is questionable, to say the least, considering his opinion on women.

Not to stir a new pot, however in fairness the NT was quite progressive when it came to women in the time it was written. It may not seem so now, but it was then.

But even if we grant that the NT claims you should not allow gay marriages, we have other form of marriages that are much more clearly forbidden. For instance, the marriage between a Christian and a non Christian. Which begs the question: why isn't there the same amount of outrage from the Christian community concerning weddings between Christians and atheists or buddhists? Why don't Christians try, with comparable energy, to forbid them, too?

Internally yes; most pastors won't marry non-believers. At least the ones I know absolutely will not. Some will of course, but it speaks to your point on individuals within Christianity. Externally or state-wide, it's not an argument worth having because it couldn't be entertained. With the current ruling in the USA, we'll probably look more like Sweden in 20 years.

Which is bad, in my opinion, but you knew that already.

I think it is obvious that what the Bible say is not so relevant. It is homosexuality that is singled out for extra biblical reasons. God is just an excuse, mainly used to defuse accusations of discrimination. It has already been done in the past with other forms of discrimination.

It is not unfair for you to say that, you see what you see. I'd argue what the Bible says is totally relevant, but how can I argue it in light of your life experience?

If there is nothing to hide, and you are naked before God, I don't see what praying can bring. God already knows what you wish.

But honestly, I have problems to identify praying with a personal relationship. I can implore my landlord to reduce the rent. That does not entail that I have a personal relationship with him.

The Bible says that God knows what we need before we ask or regardless of if we ask. He isn't a genie in a bottle, not a thing to rub for wishing or good luck.

Do you tell your landlord you love him? And you are thankful for what he provides to you? And that he rules over your life and you want only to obey him?

Likely not. Quite a different relationship, no?

I am sure God feels very motivated and Ego boosted by hearing all the time how glorious He is (I hope you indulge my pseudo humor).

But this begs another question: if you thank God for making it rain, shouldn't the child in Africa, whose eyes are being eaten by a parasite until he is blind, despite all prayers, curse Him? Or should we always thank Him, no matter what? In case of the latter, why not just simply remind Him (as if He needed to) to implement His Will, no matter what it is?

He might curse God, it's more likely he praised God for the food he ate that day. People of the first world tend to look down on the third world and ask where is God for them. And instead, don't realize their blessings are God's work. Why do YOU not give to the poor, if you are blessed so? Why is it always God's fault? Does God run the world bank, which creates poverty lines? Has God forsaken Africa, or has man?

We send missionaries to Uganda all the time (you mentioned it earlier). Some good friends of mine just sold all they own to live there (one is a water treatment specialist so he can help build them a clean water supply, etc). What do you do for the African child who is blind?

Yes, but humanity is all I see and hear. God is not very loquacious, I am afraid. Not with me, and not with them, for the above reasons. And to say that humans are fallible concerning God undermines any objectivity of their testimony, if any.

Ciao

- viole

You are of this world. God is not of this world. I'd agree that God is the quiet type in everyday living, there is no doubt, but He has said this was the case. Back to the idea of a relationship... do not forget relationships are two way streets, and this one in particular does take a lot of work on your behalf. If you think God isn't real because "I pray and I don't receive," then you should read James, perhaps you ask amiss. Perhaps you aren't where you should be, perhaps you should be praying for the blind child and not yourself. I don't know. It is a difficult uphill battle. Being a Christian is harder than anything I've ever done, but don't be deceived to think it's a happy place of rainbows and presents and blessings and wealth and good things and nothing goes wrong. It can be entirely vexing at times. It literally cost me everything I owned: my house, my car(s), my wife, my credit, my bank account, and even my children.

Fortunately for us, God is infallible, and God does use people for His good work. You can trust the gospel writers and the entirety of the Torah, Prophets, and beyond.

 

[catch22]

Well, now that they've eliminated all the Christian fundamentalists off, and persecuted them out of existence, so that God will finally leave the country...

26 So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”

27 Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?”

So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.”

29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?”

So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.”

30 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?”

So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”

31 And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?”

So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.”

32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”

And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.”

You know what happened next, right?

 

[sojourner]

With the current ruling in the USA, we'll probably look more like Sweden in 20 years.

Which is bad, in my opinion, but you knew that already.

Because the Swedish are so unhealthy, unhappy, and disrespected in the world...

 

[leibowde84]

You can deny that it has a purpose all you wish, but the facts of it are staring you in the face. Genes leading to better adaptation to the environment = better survival for the species. Those who don't have those adaptations die out. Simple.

You are ignoring the fact that there is no intention, as natural selection is merely a process or descriptive term for what we see occurring in nature. It is just the way that life improves over long expanses of time, but there is nothing "trying" to do this. It just is.

 

[sojourner]

You can trust the gospel writers and the entirety of the Torah, Prophets, and beyond.

We can?? To do what, exactly? To what "beyond" do you refer?

 

[catch22]

Because the Swedish are so unhealthy, unhappy, and disrespected in the world...

I was speaking to the state of Christianity in Sweden. As always, you bring everything down to the beastly and mundane. For what it's worth, I'd rather be respected and called great in the Kingdom of God than in the world.

 

[catch22]

We can?? To do what, exactly? To what "beyond" do you refer?

Yes. Trust it is the Word of God.

Try to keep up. The rest of the Bible.

 

[sojourner]

As always, you bring everything down to the beastly and mundane.

What's "beastly and mundane" about health, happiness and respect?? Isn't that what the church works for on our behalf -- health, happiness and respect?

For what it's worth, I'd rather be respected and called great in the Kingdom of God than in the world.

And just where and when do you suppose that kingdom is? Jesus taught us to pray that God's kingdom would come (ostensibly from somewhere and/or some time else, to the here-and-now). And, BTW, I don't think Jesus threw anyone else under the bus for the sake of his own respect -- either in this world or the "next." What gives you the right to throw your homosexual sisters and brothers under the bus for your own respect, in either world?

Yes. Trust it is the Word of God.

What proves it to be "the word of God?"

Try to keep up. The rest of the Bible.

What constitutes "the rest of the bible?" Do you include the Apocrypha, pseudopigrypha, and Thomas? Do you include other gospel fragments that may have been unknown by those who canonized the texts?

Seems like you're assigning an awfully big bottom line of certainty to something no scholar thereof is certain of. And doing so at the expense of a heretofore voiceless minority.

 

[viole]

Not to stir a new pot, however in fairness the NT was quite progressive when it came to women in the time it was written. It may not seem so now, but it was then.

I like pot stirring. But you seem to indicate that NT was more progressive than the OT. Which leads immediately to moral relativism, don't you think so?

Don't you think we need Bible V2.0 today?

Internally yes; most pastors won't marry non-believers. At least the ones I know absolutely will not. Some will of course, but it speaks to your point on individuals within Christianity. Externally or state-wide, it's not an argument worth having because it couldn't be entertained.

Well,I am not talking of pastors. I know that P. Roberstson does not approve, for instance.

I am talking of rallies protesting against the marriage between Christians and non Christians. I am talking of political lobbies claiming the this sort of marriages is against God's law as Scriptures clearly show. Where are they?

With the current ruling in the USA, we'll probably look more like Sweden in 20 years.

You will look like Sweden when your churches marry gays without any court forcing them to do that.

It is not unfair for you to say that, you see what you see. I'd argue what the Bible says is totally relevant, but how can I argue it in light of your life experience?

My experience is not so relevant. If the Bible was relevant we should see the same opposition to mixed religious marriages too. But we do not. Why not? Are some violations thereof more tolerable than others?

The Bible says that God knows what we need before we ask or regardless of if we ask. He isn't a genie in a bottle, not a thing to rub for wishing or good luck.

Obviously. If He is God. But since we can safely assume that His will shall be done, I do not see the purpose to pray. Is there a chance that He might change His plans by asking?

Do you tell your landlord you love him? And you are thankful for what he provides to you? And that he rules over your life and you want only to obey him?

Nope. But even if I did that, that would still fall short of being called a personal relationship, I think. Especially, if he does not clearly tells me what He thinks about things.

On second thought, if I ask my landlord how old is his house, he will probably tell me. God does not even seem to be able to communicate this simple information reliably. Answers about the age of the Universe deviate by 6 orders of magnitude among Christians. Which makes me seriously doubt about the reliability of their close encounters with the boss.

He might curse God, it's more likely he praised God for the food he ate that day. People of the first world tend to look down on the third world and ask where is God for them. And instead, don't realize their blessings are God's work. Why do YOU not give to the poor, if you are blessed so? Why is it always God's fault? Does God run the world bank, which creates poverty lines? Has God forsaken Africa, or has man?

Well, you do not know how much I give for Africa. But feel free to replace the kid in Africa with the European kid who died of bone cancer, if you prefer.

We send missionaries to Uganda all the time (you mentioned it earlier).

Oh yeah. I saw a movie about them.

Some good friends of mine just sold all they own to live there (one is a water treatment specialist so he can help build them a clean water supply, etc). What do you do for the African child who is blind?

Charity, mainly. i am a mathematician, therefore I am not very useful with practical stuff.

You are of this world. God is not of this world. I'd agree that God is the quiet type in everyday living, there is no doubt, but He has said this was the case. Back to the idea of a relationship... do not forget relationships are two way streets, and this one in particular does take a lot of work on your behalf. If you think God isn't real because "I pray and I don't receive," then you should read James, perhaps you ask amiss. Perhaps you aren't where you should be, perhaps you should be praying for the blind child and not yourself. I don't know. It is a difficult uphill battle. Being a Christian is harder than anything I've ever done, but don't be deceived to think it's a happy place of rainbows and presents and blessings and wealth and good things and nothing goes wrong. It can be entirely vexing at times. It literally cost me everything I owned: my house, my car(s), my wife, my credit, my bank account, and even my children.

Well, I am sorry you lost all that.

But I do not disbelieve God because I pray and I do not receive. That would be absurd, anyway. How can you pray if you do not believe first?

No, I disbelieve, among other things, because I noticed that people praying to Jesus, Brahma, Allah, Apollo, their iPad, whatever, have the same rate of success. And when there is no success, then it is God's, or their iPad's, will.

In analytical mechanics we call that a cyclic variable. It has no effect whatsoever on the course of things.

Fortunately for us, God is infallible, and God does use people for His good work. You can trust the gospel writers and the entirety of the Torah, Prophets, and beyond.

And how am I supposed to know that the people He is using are not mistaken, if they are fallible? How do you know that they did not lie to you, or are just deluded?

Ciao

- viole