Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
You understand perfectly my meaning, and I understand yours. You do not seem to understand that extreme freedom is anarchy. Its restricted American political usage is just that...restricted.
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Are us-americans criminals?
- Thread starter lunakilo
- Start date
You understand perfectly my meaning, and I understand yours. You do not seem to understand that extreme freedom is anarchy. Its restricted American political usage is just that...restricted.
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Crime everywhere has a socioeconomic base.
The justice and penal system is not fit for purpose, because it does not address the populations problems.
Yes, and yes.
For instance: Three strikes law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No, I think he has a point. I think quite a bit of the reason for the high incarceration rates in the US comes from (AFAICT) much less efforts to rehabilitate than other places. Libertarianism comes into it through a mindset something like "you made your bed, so you lie in it. Your situation is of your own making, so I don't need to help you out of it."
Maybe it's a perversion of libertarianism, but I think it's quite in line with what's often sold as libertarianism in the US.
Edit: people portray taxes and "big government" as inherent infringements of freedom, so this restricts the government from doing helpful things like the social programs that help get people out of circumstances where they're likely to offend in the first place, both by attacking the revenue the government might have to do it, and by disputing whether these sorts of activities should even be part of the government's mandate.
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That's a rather specious argument. Libertarianism is about minarchy....absolutely not the elimination of government & law.
A wag might argue that Pubs, Greens & Dems are all about totalitarianism were their love of regulation taken to the extreme.
Source? Your perception of libertarianism sure differs from mine.
How best to punish &/or rehabilitate criminals is more a matter of developing an approach which works best to minimize crime & recidivism,
while having the perp become a good citizen. This seems rather independent of political philosophy. Libertarians would simply see fewer people
in prison because there would be fewer laws to be found in violation of. We should also note that the US justice & punishment system is entirely
the creation of Pubs & Dems. We ain't the ones behind this travesty. If you voted for either of the 2 parties, look to yourself for culpability.
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Does "minarchy" include proper mental illness treatment in prison? Government-funded social programs designed to divert at-risk youth from crime? Treatment for drug abuse?
If the answer to all those questions isn't "yes", then I'd say that libertarianism certainly doesn't help matters when it comes to the insane number of people incarcerated in the US.
... except when one's political philosophy denies the government the funds or authority to actually implement what's best.
Libertarianism doesn't operate in a vacuum. When you apply parts of the libertarian position (e.g. lower taxes, small government) without the others (e.g. getting the government out of the business of punishing people for minor drug posession), the results can be horrific.
I'm not looking at things in the context of some libertarian utopia; I'm looking at things as they are now, and asking myself whether sprinkling in more "libertarianism" helps or hurts. I think that right now, in general, it hurts... especially in this wacky American environment that's a patchwork of libertarianism on some issues but authoritarianism on others.
Even if you disagree with locking up people for minor offenses (and I do too), given that this is occurring, we need more government to respond to the issues this creates, not less.
It might or might not. The philosophy that government's size should be no more than necessary to accomplish preservation of civil liberties does not say
there should be this or that specific program for prisoners or youth. I ain't gonna let you paint us with a broad brush dipped in a can of imagined extremism.
horizon_mj1
Well-Known Member
The statistics you provided are good, but on thing you must not forget when observing this subject is Legislation. Legislation varies significantly from country to country, thus creating phenomenal differences in prison populations from country to country (even from area to area; or city to city in any given country or geographical location). One piece of information I always found intriguing is; DOJ/OIG Combined DNA Index System Audit Grants You can see the variation of crimes from area to area, but fundamental key is Legislation from Nation to Nation
Who says gov't would have no funds or authority?
Perhaps you mistake us for those who want total anarchy.
Who is advocating that?
So do I.
It sounds like you're arguing against more social & economic liberty because we have a wacky system.
The existence of problems & imperfect solutions shouldn't preclude progressing in a positive direction.
America has tried making more & more things illegal, & ramping up punishment. That doesn't appear to be working.
This is beyond Dem-vs-Pub-vs-Libertarian. We need to consider non-prison solutions for many criminals, eg, restitution, house arrest with limits on travel, training.
And when prison is used, it should be safer & prepare the convict for re-entry to society....instead of training them to be hardened criminals
I disagree. We have too much government regulation which creates criminals where there should be none, eg, drug laws, campaign restraint laws, victimless crimes.
And who is to pay for this "more government" you want? What will that tax burden do to an economy where joblessness is already exacerbating crime?
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gnomon
Well-Known Member
It's the drug war.
The largest spike in prison, jail and probation in this country is due to non-violent drug offenders serving inane sentences.
There is also the federal criminal code. The code is large enough and convoluted enough that leads many lawyers to note that every one of us is in violation of the federal criminal code at some point in our lives. Most of us pretty much every day.
And here come's Caylee's Law. More stupidity on the idiot bonfire called criminal justice in the United States. Stupid laws named after dead kids.
Add on the private prison industry and you get a system in which the need for prisoners perpetuates a bad criminal justice system in this nation.
The largest spike in prison, jail and probation in this country is due to non-violent drug offenders serving inane sentences.
There is also the federal criminal code. The code is large enough and convoluted enough that leads many lawyers to note that every one of us is in violation of the federal criminal code at some point in our lives. Most of us pretty much every day.
And here come's Caylee's Law. More stupidity on the idiot bonfire called criminal justice in the United States. Stupid laws named after dead kids.
Add on the private prison industry and you get a system in which the need for prisoners perpetuates a bad criminal justice system in this nation.
Kudos for this point. As a landlord & licensed real estate broker, I found that the web of regulation made it impossible to comply with all the
laws & regs, some of which were contradictory. I'd just try to do what's right & hope I'd escape notice in problem areas.
Examples: Local zoning laws about family relationships conflicted with local, state & federal fair housing laws. There's a tricky tightrope to walk.
Sometimes no matter what I did, it was illegal according to some governing authority.
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FlyingTeaPot
Irrational Rationalist. Educated Fool.
Two reasons
1) Private prisons. Hence profit motive.
2) I guess this reason follows from the first one: they lock up people who smoke marijuana for a long long time.
I didn't say that it would have no funds or authority whatsoever. My point was that reducing the size of government and its treasury means that there will be less (if any) money for discretionary items: America won't fall into the sea if you don't rehabilitate prisoners, but it will make things worse overall, especially for the people directly affected.
The Libertarian Party, for one:
Platform | Libertarian Party
When libertarians push for progress on their platform as a whole, but get resistance on issues like sentencing and drug laws, then the result will be as I described.
I'm arguing in favour of positive change to the penal system, which includes arguing in favour of the resources to effect this change.
Well, if it results in fewer people in costly incarceration, it'll pay for itself. Most of the programs geared toward rehabilitating prisoners or preventing people from becoming criminals in the first place end up being much less expensive than actually incarcerating people.
lunakilo
Well-Known Member
I may just be a brainwashed by my (by american standards) socialistic government, but private prison companies?!
Isn't that asking for trouble?
When did one of your 'Wars on X' last not fail?
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Actually, I think this is another result of a "limited government" approach to governance.
From talking to businesspeople in the US, it sounds like navigating all the regulations can be really difficult... much moreso than in Canada, IMO. I think this is partly a result of the "limited government" approach you have.
In Canada, we have fairly strong federal and provincial governments, so they have the power to mandate to counties/regions and cities/towns that they have to do things properly, orderly and rationally. Here, if your town's rules are stupid and interfere with what should be a straightforward development application, for instance, you can appeal it to the OMB, who can strike down requirements if they rule it to be unjustified. Municipalities are also heavily limited by law about what they can and can't do.
In the US, from what I gather, there's much less recourse if you're dealing with a difficult lower level of government, because the higher level of government often doesn't have the authority (because of "limited government") to force the municipality. Also, because of the attitude that laws and restrictions should only be brought in "when necessary", the legal environment tends to be much more of an ad-hoc patchwork than a well-thought-out system.
Some discretionary items aren't serving us well, eg, the wars, bank bail-outs, stimulus money.
This is a worst case outcome which you imagine to be likely. If one looked at any political philosophy (left, right, centrist), & imagined that it would hold sway
in selected areas, but not in others, one could concoct a dysfunctional scenario. (I forgive you this, since you're Canadian.) This does not defeat our desire to
maximize social & economic liberty.
You should note that as with all political parties, were Libertarians ever to gain any power, we would only be an influence on the direction of government.
There's no need to fear us...unless you're a died in the wool statist. (Aren't all Canadians statists?)
You should also consider de-criminalizing victimless activities. That has the potential of costing no resources.
Woo hoo! Detente!
I'll be covering points others have already brought up. Some new stuff. I see it as combination of:
1 - America is "rest of the world." On purpose. An experiment of sorts, with a creed along lines of:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
2 - Coupled with history of overcoming tyranny, as if that is fundamental to 'getting things done'
3 - Plus living, even to this day, with history of slavery whereby hypocrisy of 'all men are created equal' was exposed, and then utterly ignored, downplayed for oh 150 years (and counting)
4 - Plus war on drugs, that actually perpetuates the problem, increasing demand
5 - Plus mini, unspoken 'wars,' on anything considered sinful or problem needing to be attacked
6 - Added to by 100,000 Nancy Grace types who's utter mission in life is to see the guilty people get harassed if not going away for, well, forever
7 - Topped off with reality that opening a prison is actually pretty good business. Like urban housing where the more tenants the better, and the longer they stay there, oh boy, profit is to be made. Yippeeeeeee!!!!
1 - America is "rest of the world." On purpose. An experiment of sorts, with a creed along lines of:
Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
2 - Coupled with history of overcoming tyranny, as if that is fundamental to 'getting things done'
3 - Plus living, even to this day, with history of slavery whereby hypocrisy of 'all men are created equal' was exposed, and then utterly ignored, downplayed for oh 150 years (and counting)
4 - Plus war on drugs, that actually perpetuates the problem, increasing demand
5 - Plus mini, unspoken 'wars,' on anything considered sinful or problem needing to be attacked
6 - Added to by 100,000 Nancy Grace types who's utter mission in life is to see the guilty people get harassed if not going away for, well, forever
7 - Topped off with reality that opening a prison is actually pretty good business. Like urban housing where the more tenants the better, and the longer they stay there, oh boy, profit is to be made. Yippeeeeeee!!!!
Oh, yeah....as though government run prisons are bastions of rehabilitation & redemption.
Seriously, I'd trust a privately run prison which is required to meet standards & subject to government
audit more than a government run prison which is self-regulated. (Less likelihood of mischief & mahyem.)
About 1945 or so.When did one of your 'Wars on X' last not fail?
Sure... but is, say, treatment for mentally ill or drug-addicted prisoners a discretionary item? Like I alluded to before, even though it has the potential to positively affect lots of real people, it's not like the country will fall into the sea if it's not provided. It also doesn't seem to me (in the American context, anyhow) that the government would have a constitutional requirement to provide it.
I suppose, but the difference I see is that it's actually happening. For instance, what's the Tea Party but a mash-up of ideas from Libertarianism and the Religious Right?
Depending on your definition of "statist", I may very well be.
I'm a big fan of liberty, but I also recognize that other individuals and non-governmental groups can often be bigger threats to our liberty than the government itself. I also see value in terms of liberty in the government doing things that are normally opposed by Libertarians: significant environmental regulation, for instance. I think that one of the proper functions of government is to create an environment where factors that without intervention would be externalities (environmental pollution, for instance) are reflected in direct costs to the decision-makers.
So... is it "Libertarian" or "statist" to want a government-run cap-and-trade system for GHG credits? I think that if it was properly implemented, it could create a net benefit in terms of liberty, but I also recognize that it'd need significant government intervention and oversight to make happen.
Sure. Who says I don't consider that?
Of course you would.
Actually, America doesn't do the "limited government" thing compared to Canada.
You Canucks outrank us in economic liberty, as determined each year by The Heritage Foundation & The Wall St Journal.
The US isn't as friendly to free markets & capitalism as many believe.
Even Hong Kong (within a commie country) beats us.
Index of Economic Freedom: Promoting Economic Opportunity and Prosperity | The Heritage Foundation
Good observation. But it shows how unlimited governmental power at local levels can be when the Constitution takes a back seat to political fervor.
Rather than being solely a political problem, it has a lot of incompetence & corruption as causes. We just aren't qualified to have a democracy, eh?
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