Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I think we're more likely to find solutions/explanations for Detroit and LA by examining Detroit and LA.
Detroit and Toronto have about as much in common as Detroit and Baghdad.
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Are us-americans criminals?
- Thread starter lunakilo
- Start date
I think we're more likely to find solutions/explanations for Detroit and LA by examining Detroit and LA.
Detroit and Toronto have about as much in common as Detroit and Baghdad.
How about Detroit and Windsor, then?
They're practically part of the same metropolitan area, and their economies rise and fall together... for the most part, the differences between them should be attributable to the differences between the two countries.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Let's keep our eye on the main issue: how might the U.S. improve its crime and incarceration rates? Clearly, to answer this question, it is pointless to compare the U.S. to countries like Iraq. Yes, the U.S. has a lower homicide rate than Iraq because the U.S. has recovered from its civil war, while Iraq has not. We have cleared the hurdle of political stability. What is the next hurdle? Iraq won't be able to tell us, it's still struggling with the first hurdle.
waitasec
Veteran Member
i'm afraid we'd see more of these cases...
Judges Plead Guilty in Scheme to Jail Youths for Profit - NYTimes.com
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
And Obama blames Bush. :run:
Originally Posted by gnomon
There is also the federal criminal code. The code is large enough and convoluted enough that leads many lawyers to note that every one of us is in violation of the federal criminal code at some point in our lives. Most of us pretty much every day.
Excellent point. I am not a huge Ayn Rand fan, but she did write something that makes a lot of sense, regarding our criminal code:
"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted and you create a nation of law-breakers and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."
Ayn Rand (Atlas Shrugged)
Something you have to keep in mind while looking at and comparing crime rates is that most crime occurs in large metropolitan areas. The more large metropolitan areas a country has, the higher those rates are going to look, even if the vast, vast majority of that same country is sparcely populated and extremely safe with very low crime rates - rates that may even be lower than many other COUNTRIES' rates (and some of these states are larger than a lot of countries that get thrown in for comparison!).
I have lived most of my life in midsize, southern towns, and now live in a small town in Texas (12,000 people). Though my little hamlet is sandwiched nicely between two larger cities within a half hours' drive (120,000 and 75,000 people) and less than two hours from two large cities (Dallas and Shreveport), our crime rate is EXTREMELY low, and violent crime is big, big news - because it's rare.
Interesting chart here:
United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One interesting thing I noted. My birthplace - New Orleans, one of my favorite cities in the world - has the highest murder rate. Not one time in my life have I ever felt unsafe there. But there are vast, horrible slums filled with drug use and violent criminal behavior, and I wouldn't step foot in those areas. I use this as an example because even in one city, the crime rate can vary so much depending on demographics, that these statistics hardly even seem relevent.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
You make some good points, Kathryn, but I think you go too far here:
The statistics presented in the OP and this thread are still highly relevant, I think. They indicate which countries are doing a better job of, or having better luck with, mitigating crime and incarceration in their high-crime areas. Rather than interpret this as America-bashing I see it as an opportunity to improve this country. We may benefit by adopting the policies of other countries which have been successful.Kathryn said:
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
That's why I said, they sometimes SEEM irrelevant. I didn't say they ARE irrelevant. I was discussing how, even in New Orleans, the homocide capital of the US, in most neighborhoods, one is very safe - though in other parts of that large city, you'd be a fool to walk the streets after dark.
The stats are real - but only in one sense. They don't mean much in some neighborhoods, and mean everything in others - even though those neighborhoods may only be five miles apart.
The stats are real - but only in one sense. They don't mean much in some neighborhoods, and mean everything in others - even though those neighborhoods may only be five miles apart.
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Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I think that sometimes people from other countries have misconceptions about safety, and crime, in the US. I've had people from other countries ask me often "Don't you worry about crime? Is that why everyone seems to have a gun? Should I be worried about being the victim of a violent crime when I visit (fill in the blank - Seattle, San Antonio, Virginia Beach, whatever)?"
They generalize the stats, when the reality is that there are pockets of crime in certain demographics, but the vast majority of areas in the US have low violent crime rates.
As has often been noted on this thread, the "war on drugs" has been a lost cause, and many, many, many of our incarcerated citizens are there on drug related charges. Of course, there's a really simple way to avoid that - don't use or sell drugs.
I had a very interesting event happen just today. I came home from work unexpectedly, and found my 18 year old sitting around with some other 17 and 18 year olds, with a refrigerator full of beer they had just bought. BUSTED! Luckily, the beer was still hot so they hadn't drunk any yet.
Well, this same 18 year old just went to Europe with us a few weeks ago and legally ordered a beer with every evening meal, right in front of us, and we didn't mind at all. That's called (drum roll, folks) RESPONSIBLE AND LEGAL DRINKING.
Now - we knew he'd been sneaking around drinking with his buddies beforehand - as well as transporting alcohol in his truck, and probably drinking and driving, as many rowdy 18 year olds will do.
The difference is - HERE IT'S ILLEGAL. Just having it in his truck is illegal. He could have his license revoked, which means he wouldn't be able to drive to college or to work.
He couldn't seem to understand why I was so ******. I was ****** because we have had this very clear discussion before. DO NOT BRING THINGS INTO MY HOUSE ILLEGALLY. AND DO NOT TRANSPORT ANYTHING ILLEGALLY. And do not bring your minor friends over to MY HOUSE and BREAK THE DAMN LAW.
My oldest son went to Iraq when he was 19 years old. Damn, the man should be allowed to buy a beer when he gets back home. But it's illegal, and it's not worth the trouble he can get into. That's my point.
Personally, I think the law is stupid. And guess what - I think that adults should be allowed to smoke a joint on their own backporch at night if they want - but it's for damn sure not worth the trouble you can get into by doing it - losing your job, getting arrested, all that drama. THAT'S the point. That's what makes it irresponsible.
So - my youngest son - and ME - were engaged in criminal activity today. I could have been arrested myself, this very afternoon, if some of those boys had drunk that beer and their parents had found out, or if they'd left my house and been arrested for drunk driving. And that's one reason why we have such a high crime rate here.
They generalize the stats, when the reality is that there are pockets of crime in certain demographics, but the vast majority of areas in the US have low violent crime rates.
As has often been noted on this thread, the "war on drugs" has been a lost cause, and many, many, many of our incarcerated citizens are there on drug related charges. Of course, there's a really simple way to avoid that - don't use or sell drugs.
I had a very interesting event happen just today. I came home from work unexpectedly, and found my 18 year old sitting around with some other 17 and 18 year olds, with a refrigerator full of beer they had just bought. BUSTED! Luckily, the beer was still hot so they hadn't drunk any yet.
Well, this same 18 year old just went to Europe with us a few weeks ago and legally ordered a beer with every evening meal, right in front of us, and we didn't mind at all. That's called (drum roll, folks) RESPONSIBLE AND LEGAL DRINKING.
Now - we knew he'd been sneaking around drinking with his buddies beforehand - as well as transporting alcohol in his truck, and probably drinking and driving, as many rowdy 18 year olds will do.
The difference is - HERE IT'S ILLEGAL. Just having it in his truck is illegal. He could have his license revoked, which means he wouldn't be able to drive to college or to work.
He couldn't seem to understand why I was so ******. I was ****** because we have had this very clear discussion before. DO NOT BRING THINGS INTO MY HOUSE ILLEGALLY. AND DO NOT TRANSPORT ANYTHING ILLEGALLY. And do not bring your minor friends over to MY HOUSE and BREAK THE DAMN LAW.
My oldest son went to Iraq when he was 19 years old. Damn, the man should be allowed to buy a beer when he gets back home. But it's illegal, and it's not worth the trouble he can get into. That's my point.
Personally, I think the law is stupid. And guess what - I think that adults should be allowed to smoke a joint on their own backporch at night if they want - but it's for damn sure not worth the trouble you can get into by doing it - losing your job, getting arrested, all that drama. THAT'S the point. That's what makes it irresponsible.
So - my youngest son - and ME - were engaged in criminal activity today. I could have been arrested myself, this very afternoon, if some of those boys had drunk that beer and their parents had found out, or if they'd left my house and been arrested for drunk driving. And that's one reason why we have such a high crime rate here.
Our local courts are a revolving door for drunk drivers. I've never seen one get jail time, but they always have to pay some spendy court costs.
Prosecution for profit ain't just about privatization. Cops are also big on seizing assets without due process for their own gain.
horizon_mj1
Well-Known Member
Kathryn, you raise an extremely important point of demographics within city grids with extreme crime rate variations. It is not quite as accurate if you just look at the entire picture without understanding how "it is pieced together", this is also true with statistical analysis of crime
lunakilo
Well-Known Member
I my opinion some things are not ment to be run as a business.
Fx. Schools, hospitals, prisons. They cost what they cost.
A privately run prison has to make a profit.
Why should they spend money on rehabilitation when it cuts down on the profit?
It is actually good for them if the prisoners are not rehabilitated since if they ran out of prisoners they would go out of business.
Oh! I remember hearing about that one.
We failed miserably at that one and haven't tried since.
At least not with wars of our own. We stick to fighting your wars, and then when they fail, we blame you
lunakilo
Well-Known Member
I wasn't aware pigs were good liars!
That's the point. Pigs don't tell the truth because they cannot tell the truth. It's not in their nature. Have you never heard that expression before?
Not you.
Marble
Rolling Marble
This. :yes:
I'm not actually opposed to the principle of Public-Private Partnerships, but they absolutely need to have penalties and incentives so that the company's profit is maximized when what they do best serves the public good.
I'm not sure how this could be done with a prison, because the other side of the P3 equation is that they work best when the company involved is able to control the factors that are incentivized/disincentivized. Otherwise, you're not going to get good value from your partnership.
If the things we care about are things like reducing the recidivism rate, it would be very difficult for a prison contractor to have much effect on most of the factors at play.
Those are certainly disincentives to societal goals which would each exist to some extent. But we should also consider
that the state has counter-incentives too. Civil servants get paid no matter how bad a job they do, they've greater
immunity from the law for their misdeeds, & they have greater job security if prisoners aren't rehabilitated. We need
only look to the great documentary, The Shawshank Redemption, to see the evils of government run prisons.
The advantages I see to private prisons:
- Incentive for efficiency would offset the cost of profit.
- The regulating body (ie, gov't) would be a different entity from the service provider (ie, the prison).
War is over-rated.Oh! I remember hearing about that one.
We failed miserably at that one and haven't tried since.
At least not with wars of our own. We stick to fighting your wars, and then when they fail, we blame you
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Pigs aren't liars either. They just ain't talk'n....pigs don't snitch.I wasn't aware pigs were good liars!
That's why bacon, ham & pork taste so delicious!
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lunakilo
Well-Known Member
I know that civil servants in many countries have better job protection than people who are privatly employed and thus are more difficult to fire (I assume it is like that in the US) but even so (and it doesn't have to be that way) they can get fired if they don't do a good job.
Why would you assume that a person who is publicly employed (or what ever it is called when you ar not privatly employed) would not get fired for not doing his job properly?
I never claimed that prisons would magically turm into good prisons if they were government run.
Efficiency usually means cutting staff. :yes:
Again a government run prison doesn't need to worry about profit at all.
I will give you that one.
But I don't see it as a big problem as it is not the prison which would be regulating it self which if it was government run. The regulating body would be an other government run entity.
Mmm bacon, wait...
Are you saying bacon taste so good because pigs don't snitch.
Anyway, trying to get back on topic....
So you Revoltingest don't think it the fact that you have privatly run prisons han an effect on the number of people in prison?
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