Are We in Need of Salvation?

[Katzpur]

Would the following excerpts from Lewis be in accord with the Mormon theology of Godhood as well as you say he does? The simple fact he does not capitalise "god" when it comes to us speaks volumes in of itself, and referring to us still as "creatures" says a lot too.

So, we don't capitalize "gods" when it comes to us, either, and I agree, that fact does speak volumes. There is no Latter-day Saint alive or dead who believes that (1) he or she will ever be equal to God, or (2) that any of this would be possible were it not God's will. If you believe oherwise about us, you have been misled. We do, however, believe that God wants us to become perfect and has the ability to make us into anything He wants us make us into.

If it needs to be confirmed that his own ideas about divinisation are far away from any notion of deification that Mormons might put forward, the following passages would do this.

From Miracles:
"All creatures, from the angel to the atom, are other than God; with an otherness to which there is no parallel: incommensurable. The very words ‘to be’ cannot be applied to Him and to them in exactly the same sense."

And from Mere Christianity:
"Of course we never wanted, and never asked, to be made into the sort of creatures He is going to make us into. But the question is not what we intended ourselves to be, but what He intended us to be when He made us. He is the inventor, we are only the machine. He is the painter, we are only the picture."

"Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is no man. That is why men are not Sons of God in the sense that Christ is. They may be like God in certain ways, but they are not things of the same kind. They are more like statues or pictures of God."

You evidently do believe that we see ourselves as someday being His equal. We do not. He will always be our God, our only God, and we will always worship Him.

Unless you mean Lewis' words, taken out of context, describe the Mormon belief well, even if they do not represent what Lewis actually believed?

We would fully agree with Lewis that we are "other than God." We are, however, more than just "creatures." We are His offspring. He is the Father of the spirits of each and every one of us. That's biblical; it's not just C.S. Lewis. And no, we're not sons and daughters of God in the same sense that Christ is. We would fully agree with C.S. Lewis on that point, too. Actually, we agree with so much of what he said that he has become by far the most oft-quoted non-LDS Christian theologian to have ever lived.

You and I are not going to agree on this, no matter how long and hard we choose to debate the subject. How long do you think we should go the rounds on this, or should I just say, "Whatever..." right now and let you have the last word?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

So, we don't capitalize "gods" when it comes to us, either, and I agree, that fact does speak volumes. There is no Latter-day Saint alive or dead who believes that (1) he or she will ever be equal to God, or (2) that any of this would be possible were it not God's will. If you believe oherwise about us, you have been misled. We do, however, believe that God wants us to become perfect and has the ability to make us into anything He wants us make us into.

You evidently do believe that we see ourselves as someday being His equal. We do not. He will always be our God, our only God, and we will always worship Him.

We would fully agree with Lewis that we are "other than God." We are, however, more than just "creatures." We are His offspring. He is the Father of the spirits of each and every one of us. That's biblical; it's not just C.S. Lewis. And no, we're not sons and daughters of God in the same sense that Christ is. We would fully agree with C.S. Lewis on that point, too. Actually, we agree with so much of what he said that he has become by far the most oft-quoted non-LDS Christian theologian to have ever lived.

You and I are not going to agree on this, no matter how long and hard we choose to debate the subject. How long do you think we should go the rounds on this, or should I just say, "Whatever..." right now and let you have the last word?

On the contrary, if what you have said is correct with regards to LDS doctrine, then I would have to apologise for my mistake, perhaps Lewis' theology is more similar to the LDS regarding this issue than I previously thought. I would not say identical, but perhaps it is similar. Would I be correct in saying the LDS believe the very nature of a human being, the very essence, is transformed, to something divine? That is where I would disagree. I am not as well versed in LDS theology as I would like, so please forgive any misunderstanding on my part.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

If an individual feels they need to be saved or redeemed, then they probably do. Applying such concepts to the species as a whole seems to be a rather hollow and banal exercise to me.

 

[Sunstone]

Sunstone said he wanted to see bloodshed for his amusement.

WTF? Perhaps thou doth project too much.

 

[Sunstone]

I see little value in equating redemption, salvation, and betterment. At the same time, to ask if humanity warrants improvement seems to be asking a rather underwhelming question.

I was trying to phrase the question in such a way as to be relevant to people of as many religions as possible. But I grant, I didn't come up with the greatest choice of words in attempting to do so.

 

[Mycroft]

If someone were to ask if I am in need of salvation, I would ask of them the following:

1) Which agency is to supply this 'salvation'?
2) What authoriy does the said agency hold over me so as to be able to grant 'salvation'?
3) what is the perceieved 'sin' that requires my 'salvation'?
4) By what standard do they consider X Y or Z to be a 'sin'?

and so on.

 

[SkylarHunter]

Well we are all living on sinking ship (human civilization) that is headed for an iceberg (climate change) and the ship's boiler (the global economy) is threatening to blow and all the lifeboats (religions, Utopian ideologies and philosophies) are just dead weight

My thoughts exactly. We desperately need salvation.

 

[Katzpur]

If someone were to ask if I am in need of salvation, I would ask of them the following:

1) Which agency is to supply this 'salvation'?
2) What authoriy does the said agency hold over me so as to be able to grant 'salvation'?
3) what is the perceieved 'sin' that requires my 'salvation'?
4) By what standard do they consider X Y or Z to be a 'sin'?

and so on.

What if it's not an "agency" at all, but just Jesus Christ?

 

[Mycroft]

What if it's not an "agency" at all, but just Jesus Christ?

in the context of the question Jesus Christ (as a member of the Holy Trinity) would count as an 'agency' or 'agent'.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Generally speaking, are humans in need of some kind of redemption, salvation, reformation, transformation, etc.? (For short, I'll simply use the word "salvation" to refer to the notion of changing humans for the better.)

If so, what are we in need of salvation from?

Yes! We are in need of salvation from the cultural paradigms which place artificial boundary and success conditions on our humanity.

How are we saved?

We are saved through introspection.

Is it necessary for individuals to do anything in order to obtain salvation? If so, what is that?

We must learn who we are.

In essence, the current human condition is artificial. Purpose in all life, in the natural state, has been lost on us through the cultural paradigms and illusions of success, norms, and other cultural requirements. To be saved one must realize the difference between who they are, and who they are supposed to be. To do that one must know who he is independent of the artificial.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Many we need salvation from all these utopian projects and plans of salvation we come up with. Just about everyone thinks they have the answer that will help fix it. Either their religion or their politics or their faith in science or technology are presented as the answer.

Maybe we should just stop talking about saving anything and start talking about cutting our losses.

As far as I am concern, there is absolutely nothing to be done. The project we call "human civilization" is over.

The fat lady as sung and the curtain is being lowered and it is the end of the show.

Yet most of us think that we can do something about it. That our creeds and confessions can somehow change human nature. That our science and technology can somehow fix human nature. Maybe there is no changing human nature, maybe there is no fixing it. Maybe our trying to change and fix it is what got us here in the first place.

Maybe there is no answer.

 

[Mycroft]

Many we need salvation from all these utopian projects and plans of salvation we come up with.

You can't have Utopia. The word implies a static state, but society and technology are anything but. If you build the best computer ever made, in ten years time it would be obsolete. There's a book that I think is called 1001 Utopias and Why they Failed. Worth a read.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

You can't have Utopia. The word implies a static state, but society and technology are anything but. If you build the best computer ever made, in ten years time it would be obsolete. There's a book that I think is called 1001 Utopias and Why they Failed. Worth a read.

You're are right. Society is not static. Society is definitely headed in a certain direction. So tell me in what direction is a dysfunctional and dystopic society like ours is headed?

 

[Katzpur]

On the contrary, if what you have said is correct with regards to LDS doctrine, then I would have to apologise for my mistake, perhaps Lewis' theology is more similar to the LDS regarding this issue than I previously thought. I would not say identical, but perhaps it is similar.

Let me begin by thanking you for at least being open-minded to the possiblity that you may have misunderstood our doctrine. I appreciate that very much. I would agree that it would be misleading for us (LDS) to suggest that Lewis' beliefs were even close to being "identical" to ours. He does seem to be everybody's favorite theologian and we would all like to claim him as our own. I recognize that he was a practicing Anglican, and it was not my intention to try to imply that the majority of his theology was "Mormon." Many of his thoughts do resonate deeply with us, though, and I would say that the quote which prompted our discussion is an excellent example of this. As far as "if what have said is correct with regards to LDS doctrine," let me just state unequivocably that I would never intentionally misrepresent our doctrines. I feel both confident that what I said is an accurate expression of LDS theology.

Would I be correct in saying the LDS believe the very nature of a human being, the very essence, is transformed, to something divine? That is where I would disagree. I am not as well versed in LDS theology as I would like, so please forgive any misunderstanding on my part.

We probably still do disagree then. We Mormons believe, as you may or may not know, that ours is a restoration of the very Church Jesus Christ established during His ministry here on earth. It would follow, then, that we believe we are teaching the same doctrines as were taught then and accepted by Jesus’ followers. Throughout the New Testament, there are indications that this doctrine (known as deification or exaltation) is not one the Latter-day Saints invented, but that the earliest Christians understood and believed it, as well.

Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21 are the four I like best. Through these verses, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of His divine nature and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.

Now, if these promises are true, what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?

Finally, there is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:

In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”

 

[Gjallarhorn]

You're are right. Society is not static. Society is definitely headed in a certain direction. So tell me in what direction is a dysfunctional and dystopic society like ours is headed?

Peaceful oblivion, in accordance with universal entropy.

Oh you mean in the short term. Who cares?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Peaceful oblivion, in accordance with universal entropy.

Oh you mean in the short term. Who cares?

Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die.

I am cool with that.

 

[Pegg]

Generally speaking, are humans in need of some kind of redemption, salvation, reformation, transformation, etc.? (For short, I'll simply use the word "salvation" to refer to the notion of changing humans for the better.)

If so, what are we in need of salvation from?

No matter what our station in life, there is one thing common to us all...we are all going to die. Most people do not want to die, and they do not want their loved ones to die. Parents do not want their children to die and children do not want their parents to die.

So when we are confronted with the prospect of death, we do whatever is necessary to save ourselves from it. God also wants to save us from death.

How are we saved?

Salvation has been made possible through the death of Christ Jesus. The bible says of Jesus "so that by God’s undeserved kindness he (Jesus) might taste death for everyone'

Divine law stipulated that if the laws of God are broken, death would result. Adam broke divine law and was subsequently condemned to death....his children were born after he became a sinner and therefore they inherited his imperfection....just like when a parent passes on an inheritable disease, we inherited sin and death.

But Christ was commissioned to 'taste death for everyone' meaning he died on behalf of us. Now Adams children do not have to be condemned to die the way Adam was....we have a way out of death.

Is it necessary for individuals to do anything in order to obtain salvation? If so, what is that?

Yes there is. Death was brought about because of disobedience to Gods laws. So it is logical then that salvation requires that we submit and obey those laws. If we do so, and we express faith in Christs sacrifice, then God will view us as 'righteous for life'

John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're are right. Society is not static. Society is definitely headed in a certain direction. So tell me in what direction is a dysfunctional and dystopic society like ours is headed?

America's probably going to end up in third world status before the end of this century or so due to the ever-widening gap between the rich and everyone else. So things are going to get very hard, but it's not like the species is going to end up dying out. We'll just have to find new solutions. Humans are great at adaptation. That's why we've lasted this long and spread out all over the globe.

 

[StarryNightshade]

Maybe we don't need to be "saved". Perhaps just experience and learn.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

(I)t's not like the species is going to end up dying out. We'll just have to find new solutions. Humans are great at adaptation. That's why we've lasted this long and spread out all over the globe.

We do not know that. We might be facing a major extinction event and myabe we should prepare ourselves psychologically for it.

And sorry, but modern humans have only been here on this earth for a relatively short time, we do not know if the human species is not some sort of evolutionary dead-end.

There are no guarantees.