Are We in Need of Salvation?

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

That's not exactly what I was suggesting, sorry I didn't put much description into it.

Today, we have humans who find themselves imperfect elect a small group of other humans whom they put large quantities of faith in, and rely on them ever too deeply.

But the irony in that is, it's exactly the same way turned around; this small group of other humans (the government) also relies on our participation too deeply - their forces would be next to useless if we weren't manipulated by fearing them.

While we depend on each other in the sense that we're an interdependent, communal species is different than saying we depend on each other in the sense that everyone expects the other guy to do most of the work for them, and I'm sure we can already know what goes wrong with that.

You do realize though that you're referring to a very American way of thinking right? That for millennia people have actually put their faiths in singular individuals and had a very constant dependency on them. How many democracies can you name dating back from the 1500s to ancient times?

If that doesn't make sense I'm indicating that in all points of history we have always relied on a small group to have power to guide and lead. In fact we at least I'm the US have gone the other route...in ideology anyways.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

You do realize though that you're referring to a very American way of thinking right? That for millennia people have actually put their faiths in singular individuals and had a very constant dependency on them. How many democracies can you name dating back from the 1500s to ancient times?

That was an example from a US American viewpoint, yes, but there are very few places across the globe that you can find a civilization that isn't afraid of the thought of self governance. We need to rescue ourselves from this delusion - we've been in a certain system for so long, a system that is fated to trip over its own feet, that we're so used to it and afraid of the opposite which would be more successful. We need to learn how to live when we're the only power to rely on.

Stop praying for gods, stop electing leaders, stop paying people to do your work that you can do. Only you know what you exactly want, and so only you know exactly how to achieve that. Take control of the parts you can, because otherwise you're giving people control over larger percentages of your goal and it could be, and likely be, a failure, further from perfection than it would be otherwise. You become a puppet, the people that helped you to reach your goal will twist and turn plans toward those goals and eventually will twist and turn your goals.

If that doesn't make sense I'm indicating that in all points of history we have always relied on a small group to have power to guide and lead. In fact we at least I'm the US have gone the other route...in ideology anyways.

Exactly, we're so deep into this system that will break after so much pressure that we're afraid of the more stable and reliable one.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You are probably right and it's true that humans have a great capacity to adjust, but that only stretches so far. We cannot adapt to lack of oxygen, food and clean water. Climate change is a much bigger problem than economy and a lot of people don't want to see that.
It's now accepted by the majority of scientists that humans contribute largely to climate change and that the consequences are disastrous. We are already feeling some of those consequences and what is to come is a lot worse but governments don't have the courage to do what needs to be done, and people are not willing to give up some of their comfort in order to save this planet.
We can't survive without our planet and we are destroying it fast.

I agree that climate change is a problem, but I'm not convinced it's a world-ending extinction event like you and Cynthia are saying so I'm not going to join you two in the apocalypse talk (it eerily reminds me of religious "end of the world" nuttery, and I don't think that's a coincidence). All we basically have are guesses as to what might happen. But certainly we should be working to end pollution.

In the book of Genesis Satan, using a serpent, questions God's authority over humans and implies that we can take care of ourselves. Looking at the world today and where we are heading, I can see he was wrong. We humans - as a society - are not capable of looking after ourselves. We destroy each other and our own home and that will continue until there is nothing left unless, like the Bible says, God will come and fix this.

There is no deity that's going to save us. That's probably one of the causes of the mess we're in in the first place - the embedded notion that some god will save us eventually, leaving us with a feeling of defeatism and helpfulness. There is no god that's going to save us. Aliens aren't going to help, either. If humanity needs saving, it's going to have to save itself. We're own saviors. It's time to grow up.

 

[ChristineES]

Generally speaking, are humans in need of some kind of redemption, salvation, reformation, transformation, etc.? (For short, I'll simply use the word "salvation" to refer to the notion of changing humans for the better.)

If so, what are we in need of salvation from?

How are we saved?

Is it necessary for individuals to do anything in order to obtain salvation? If so, what is that?

Please remember this thread is in a debate section. Thank you!

As I am a Christian, I am one of those who believes in salvation. What I believe that we are really being saved from is ourselves: Our own human shortcomings. We eat too much, sometimes, we give in to things of the flesh that we should not and so on. We are not perfect, and even atheists believe that.

 

[no-body]

It is interesting. Usually it's "Our very natures makes us think we're perfect" but you seem to be saying the opposite.

Almost everyone, everywhere thinks there is eventually some magical key that they will acquire that will fix everything and make it all better, forget perfection. You don't need salvation, you are already saved. Heaven is already here.

 

[ZenMonkey]

Generally speaking, are humans in need of some kind of redemption, salvation, reformation, transformation, etc.? (For short, I'll simply use the word "salvation" to refer to the notion of changing humans for the better.)

If so, what are we in need of salvation from?

How are we saved?

Is it necessary for individuals to do anything in order to obtain salvation? If so, what is that?

Please remember this thread is in a debate section. Thank you!

Some say from hell. I say from ignorance and fear. What is it about Christ, the way he lived, the way he died, the way he served, and the way he displayed his love for the world makes people think he'll stray from his purpose as savior of the world? Did his life suggest that he would give up on man? Did his character suggest that his love would fail us? No! Man has corrupted the image of our heavenly Father suggesting that if we don't do this or that, or believe this and that, we'll burn in hell. The church has utilized this corrupt and beastly image to fill their pockets through fear, holy wars, and violence making themselves thieves and robbers. People who believe we're being saved from hell honor the image perpetrated by the church ignorantly, and because of fear they have been made blind. They have been cast into outer darkness because they haven't the light of Christ to light their path.


The faith the eternal torment proponents show in our heavenly father is spiritless, blind, empty, and desolate. It's an abomination, shameful, vile, and detestable. They have been robbed of true faith, trust, and security in our heavenly father, and they in turn peddle the same fear the enemy has tricked them into believing ignorantly. This abomination of desolation is standing in the holy places. It has been for ages. It stands in the temples (churches) of God and in all who have been deceived by the enemy. Christ came to save the world from this desolation, to strengthen our faith in love, and to give us life - that we might live abundantly through love. That's the gospel. "Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water?" Neither does Christ. We're not being saved from an eternal hell, but from the ignorance and fear so many live in. We are saved by grace through faith and by faith working through love. Perfect love casts out fear, so in order to know salvation (freedom) in life, we must embrace, honor, and have faith in love. God is love, and those who love know God, and have been born of God.


The truth will set you free!


Fear and insecurity has torment, but there is security in knowing the love of God. :candle:

 

[Penumbra]

Generally speaking, are humans in need of some kind of redemption, salvation, reformation, transformation, etc.? (For short, I'll simply use the word "salvation" to refer to the notion of changing humans for the better.)

If so, what are we in need of salvation from?

How are we saved?

Is it necessary for individuals to do anything in order to obtain salvation? If so, what is that?

Please remember this thread is in a debate section. Thank you!

From a theistic perspective, I see no rational need of salvation unless gods themselves are imperfect (and if that were the case, who would do the saving?)

Salvation implies some error in the process of creation, some thing that god does not want. It's a narrative to make things more interesting, like how most good movies need a villain and all this created drama, and somehow humans always end up at the center of these human-created stories. Something like there's god, but then this bad guy comes, and we have this awesome cosmic battle now! Woo! But logically, if god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, there is no battle and never was a battle and it's all just a play with the spoilers already revealed. It's all as it should be, and couldn't logically be otherwise. That's what omnipotence is- the ability to do anything and solve anything instantly (and actually, solve it before it happens, if desired). So any suffering is there on allowance or direction from god, unless god is not omnipotent or does not exist. (Early Biblical accounts portrayed god as not omniscient or omnipotent. This was a later refinement. And various non-Abrahamic gods are not portrayed as omnipotent.)

And many religions are pantheist or panentheist, meaning the world is part of god. To call the world imperfect in such a case, is to call part of god imperfect.

From an atheist perspective without god, humans are another species among many. We're certainly in need of improvement as we're headed for environmental disaster. But in that worldview there is no external salvation; no quick fix diet pill. Only diet and exercise and right behavior. If it doesn't work out, then the next intelligent species or civilization might have records of how this one went, and learn from this to make better choices.

Well we are all living on sinking ship (human civilization) that is headed for an iceberg (climate change) and the ship's boiler (the global economy) is threatening to blow and all the lifeboats (religions, Utopian ideologies and philosophies) are just dead weight with no buoyancy and are contributing to the sinking of the ship

So what do you think? Maybe we need to be saved. I don't know but the whole situation looks screwed to me.

Only from our perspective. Species die out all the time; it's not like we're immune from that. Life can go on without us.

Realistically the collapse of civilization, if it were to occur, shouldn't mean the extinction of humanity. Humans will probably live on for a while. And if they don't, then we become another evolutionary dead end, or lead to something else. No biggie on the cosmic scale. The other 99% of extinct species weren't saved.