Are you a Fan or a Follower of Jesus?

[Draka]

Why does there seem to be a problem with someone not being either a follower or a fan of Jesus? How can one claim to be a fan of someone they may not even believe ever existed and therefore, don't logically believe in the supposed actions of the supposed person? It may have nothing to do with any alleged "teachings", it just may have to do with not believing the person existed to even teach those teachings. Or maybe it's just not one's "cup of tea" so to speak. Or maybe they don't either believe in or like the whole background of the story of Jesus and the Abrahamic god at all. Why is it an issue?

 

[Caladan]

Why does there seem to be a problem with someone not being either a follower or a fan of Jesus? How can one claim to be a fan of someone they may not even believe ever existed and therefore, don't logically believe in the supposed actions of the supposed person? It may have nothing to do with any alleged "teachings", it just may have to do with not believing the person existed to even teach those teachings. Or maybe it's just not one's "cup of tea" so to speak. Or maybe they don't either believe in or like the whole background of the story of Jesus and the Abrahamic god at all. Why is it an issue?

Because there are still real and 'vintage' communities who still take this faith very seriously.
ones who have been living in the middle east for hundreds and thousands of years. in Palestine, Galilee and Nazareth, and in the surrounding lands, such as Lebanon and Jordan. these territories are all considered part of the 'holy land'.

the story of Jesus of Nazareth tells us of a tragedy of a middle easterner. a Jewish man from Galilee and from Nazareth.
the very fact that the story has 'fans', means that people in the west have not wised up to the moral of the story, nor to its content. it is a lively story of misfortune. of Jews, Romans and Samaritans.
Not a single American is mentioned in it.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Because there are still real and 'vintage' communities who still take this faith very seriously.
ones who have been living in the middle east for hundreds and thousands of years. in Palestine, Galilee and Nazareth, and in the surrounding lands, such as Lebanon and Jordan. these territories are all considered part of the 'holy land'.

the story of Jesus of Nazareth tells us of a tragedy of a middle easterner. a Jewish man from Galilee and from Nazareth.
the very fact that the story has 'fans', means that people in the west have not wised up to the moral of the story, nor to its content. it is a lively story of misfortune. of Jews, Romans and Samaritans.
Not a single American is mentioned in it.

So, because no Westerners are mentioned, they cannot be followers? Hmm.

And I think there are many followers of Jesus in the West. There are many people who seriously try to live like Jesus. Christian monasteries are a good example. And being a follower doesn't mean you must be exactly like Jesus. As long as you try, like I do, then surely you can still be considered as a follower? Sure, I might not be very good at it, but I still try to follow Jesus' teachings and live like Him.

 

[Caladan]

As long as you don't pick up arms and act on a crusade and try to reclaim lost regions in the middle east. or as long as you do not pretend to be Jewish, an Arab, a Roman, a Samaritan. its not much of my concern.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

As long as you don't pick up arms and act on a crusade and try to reclaim lost regions in the middle east. or as long as you do not pretend to be Jewish, an Arab, a Roman, a Samaritan. its not much of my concern.

No, picking up arms and going on a crusade isn't following Jesus' teachings at all. I know that. Just because so-called "Christians" have made horrible mistakes in the past, doesn't apply to the whole of Christianity.

 

[gnostic]

I do admire some of the things he taught, but not everything.

Things like having compassion for people, not persecuting others, etc, is something that I understand.

Miracles, angel visitations and demonic possessions I tend not to believe. If anything, I think it has done more damage to Christianity than anything else, considering that even today, there are charlatans, who claimed that they can heal the sick, exorcise demons or speak in tongues.

One thing I do know, is that I may admire certain teaching of Jesus, I don't like apostle Paul at all.

In any case, I still wouldn't say that I am a fan or follower of Jesus.

 

[Caladan]

No, picking up arms and going on a crusade isn't following Jesus' teachings at all. I know that. Just because so-called "Christians" have made horrible mistakes in the past, doesn't apply to the whole of Christianity.

Im sorry. but it does. and contrary to what you may believe, all people in the middle east still relive that part of history.
the crusades were part of a mandate by the central christian powers and carried out by the central christian states and the christians on the peripheries.
it very much does project on the entire christian world.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Im sorry. but it does. and contrary to what you may believe, all people in the middle east still relive that part of history.
the crusades were part of a mandate by the central christian powers and carried out by the central christian states and the christians on the peripheries.
it very much does project on the entire christian world.

No, it doesn't. I'm sure many people are ashamed of the Crusades, but it cannot be used to generalise Christianity.
If Christians had followed Jesus' teachings, the Crusades wouldn't have happened. The Crusades are an unfair projection on Christianity, because it does not represent what we believe in and what Christ taught us.
In the Old Testament, the Israelites killed babies and women, justifying their actions through God. As such, should we generalise Jews and consider them all to be baby-killing murderers? Or people that advocate the execution of babies? No, because it is not an accurate projection of Jewish beliefs.

 

[Caladan]

No, it doesn't. I'm sure many people are ashamed of the Crusades, but it cannot be used to generalise Christianity.

you are only deluding your self. and like many people in Britain and North America, you try to reinvent christianity and christian history. its not that we generalise. its that we are students of history, and we know our history and the history of our region very well.
christian history is what it is. it has intermingled with Jewish and Muslim history. its politics have become interlinked with Muslim and then with Jewish politics. this is the world we have been living in. its history.
and no one, not you, nor the pope, the church, nor the major denominations can erase that.
you are part of the history of european christianity, you cannot separate yourself from the political world the rest of us are part of.

If Christians had followed Jesus' teachings, the Crusades wouldn't have happened.

exactly. had christians in europe and north america have followed Jesus teachings.
but as Maher said. the christians in north america today are fans. and just like the crusaders before them they march into the middle east. and most of them are still fans on the jesus team. why they kill other semitic men, is a question yet to be resolved. perhaps christians in the west can never follow jesus correctly.

The Crusades are an unfair projection on Christianity, because it does not represent what we believe in and what Christ taught us.

really, I dont know who we is. today, there are endless denominations and they all seem to believe differently about what jesus did, what he said, or who he was.

In the Old Testament, the Israelites killed babies and women, justifying their actions through God. As such, should we generalise Jews and consider them all to be baby-killing murderers? Or people that advocate the execution of babies? No, because it is not an accurate projection of Jewish beliefs.

I am sorry I am going to have to ignore this revisionistic, uneducated and antisemitic propaganda.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I am sorry I am going to have to ignore this revisionistic, uneducated and antisemitic propaganda.

So, the moment I use an example on Jews, I become anti-semitic?
How am I? If you can use a moment in history to generalise Christians, why can't I use a moment in history to generalise Jews? And don't say it didn't happen. The Old Testament would not make up such a story, but would rather point out these facts and try to justify them.

 

[Caladan]

So, the moment I use an example on Jews, I become anti-semitic?
How am I? If you can use a moment in history to generalise Christians, why can't I use a moment in history to generalise Jews? And don't say it didn't happen. The Old Testament would not make up such a story, but would rather point out these facts and try to justify them.

Surley, youre kidding me.
the crusaders and the crusades are an established historical period and an established historical events in the history of Europe and the Middle east.
and I am sorry. but as an archaeologist it is my duty to tell you that the Biblical stories MUST be taken with a grain of salt. especially the kind you brought up.
and as a human being, it is my duty to tell you, that it is tiring and shameful that instead of looking at your own history and the history of your own religion, you shifted the load on the camel's back, the Jews.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Surley, youre kidding me.
the crusaders and the crusades are an established historical period and an established historical events in the history of Europe and the Middle east.
and I am sorry. but as an archaeologist it is my duty to tell you that the Biblical stories MUST be taken with a grain of salt. especially the kind you brought up.
and as a human being, it is my duty to tell you, that it is tiring and shameful that instead of looking at your own history and the history of your own religion, you shifted the load on the camel's back, the Jews.

I'm not shifting anything.
The Crusades was a horrible event. Something that should never have happened and I am sure many Christians are ashamed of the atrocities that took place, myself included.
But I am just giving an example of what you are telling me, in a Jewish context.
What if the baby-killing stories are true, does it give an accurate projection of the Jews? No, it doesn't. Neither does the Crusades give an accurate projection of Christianity.
Please understand. I'm not anti-semitic, or trying to suggest anything bad about the Jews.

 

[Caladan]

I'm not shifting anything.
The Crusades was a horrible event. Something that should never have happened and I am sure many Christians are ashamed of the atrocities that took place, myself included.
But I am just giving an example of what you are telling me, in a Jewish context.
What if the baby-killing stories are true, does it give an accurate projection of the Jews? No, it doesn't. Neither does the Crusades give an accurate projection of Christianity.
Please understand. I'm not anti-semitic, or trying to suggest anything bad about the Jews.

Sure lets play this game.
It does mean that unlike modern christians. the kind who live in europe.
the Jews actually act on their doctrine, and are fierce believers.
as their god is certainly not a god of love. he is a terrible god as their scriptures teaches. and he does promote ethnic cleansing for territorial gains.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Sure lets play this game.
It does mean that unlike modern christians. the kind who live in europe.
the Jews actually act on their doctrine, and are fierce believers.
as their god is certainly not a god of love. he is a terrible god as their scriptures teaches. and he does promote ethnic cleansing for territorial gains.

Well, glad that's sorted then.

You can't generalise an entire religion over an event or more than one event in history. To define modern Christians, look at modern events. The amount of relief work that Christians do to help others, and the staggering number of Christian charities that help all over the world. Do you forget about those, and only focus on something that happened hundreds of years ago?

 

[Eagle]

This amazes me that people will take events like the Crusades and use that to change the teachings of Christ.........the fact of the matter is that followers of Christ follows His teachings, if they do not follow His teachings they are not His disciples no matter what they call themselves........so what you need to do is analyze the fruit of the Crusades and then compare it with the teachings of Jesus Christ to find out if they were truly lovers of Jesus or rather lovers of Mammon..........if I say I am a Jew or a Muslim or a Satanist, but worship Jesus Christ, what am I really?
The Crusaders had an evil agenda behind their religious exposure.......this is pretty common in this world, deceive people with the good and then get the power to fulfill the personal agenda. Wolf in sheep's clothing.... Did Hitler not claim he was a Christian too? Yea sure! I believe that the anti-Chist will do the same, he will first come and be nice, helping the world untill he has all the power he needs to control the world......the Crusades, Hitler, etc. are all foreshadows of what is ultimately going to happy soon.

 

[Caladan]

Well, glad that's sorted then.

Well. so much for British scholarship.

You can't generalise an entire religion over an event or more than one event in history.

of course I can. and this is exactly what the rest of the world is doing. the crusades are not simply a single event, and are more than a series of events. it is a two hundred years period, with long lasting effects that still echo in our region today.
the events repeated themselfs when british colonial armies repeated the colonization of the middle east in the previous century and left it in ruins. unleashing Jews against Arabs and Arabs against Jews.

To define modern Christians, look at modern events. The amount of relief work that Christians do to help others, and the staggering number of Christian charities that help all over the world. Do you forget about those, and only focus on something that happened hundreds of years ago?

Sure. all this charity work does not bring back hundreds of thousands of killed men and women. who were still being hunted down like rabbid dogs in recent years in Iraq, in Afghanistan.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Well. so much for British scholarship.


of course I can. and this is exactly what the rest of the world is doing. the crusades are not simply a single event, and are more than a series of events. it is a two hundred years period, with long lasting effects that still echo in our region today.
the events repeated themselfs when british colonial armies repeated the colonization of the middle east in the previous century and left it in ruins. unleashing Jews against Arabs and Arabs against Jews.


Sure. all this charity work does not bring back hundreds of thousands of killed men and women. who were still being hunted down like rabbid dogs in recent years in Iraq, in Afghanistan.

You can generalise Christians with the Crusades if you wish to, but that does not make it true. It cannot represent Christianity, because it is the result of selfishness and using religion as a justification for horrible acts for a personal agenda.
British colonialism is not the result of Christianity.
What happens in Iraq and Afghanistan is not the result of Christianity.
These are personal agendas and matters that are have little to do with religion. You are grouping Western atrocities together with Christian ones.
Sure, charity work does not bring people back, but it is the purest representation of what we stand for and our beliefs. You cannot base your view on Christianity on events that took place which were against the true beliefs of Christianity.
If Jesus had commanded for the Crusades to happen, and advocated the persecution of the Middle East, then you would have a point. But He didn't. Christianity was used as some kind of sick justification for a horrible event. You cannot tell me that the Crusades were in accordance with Christian beliefs and principles, because they weren't. Therefore you cannot tell me that an event which has no correlation with the main principles and beliefs of a religion can represent and give any kind of understanding into that religion.

 

[blackout]

People create their Own versions of Jesus/Christ/Christianity
which they can then follow. (without insurmountable conflict)
(as their version fits their own agendas, needs, ideals, ideas, and wants)
Really they are just following their Own Ideals,
packaged in an "authoritative" power play/my'thology.
Or, they choose/have thrust upon them, some version or another (of Christianity)
that crushes them, their spirit, as they cannot live up to it's commands, commandments, and doctrines.

If we all were to TRULY FOLLOW in the ways/being/practice of a Christ,
we would all/each/ourSelves BE Christs.

Unfortunately mainstream christianity encourages sheeple,
where there should be gods.

DEPTH of I'mITation, is key-- when it comes to BECOMING Following,
as opposed to "tagging along behind" following.

I see the Jesus character as a Magus.
yes. A Source'heir'er. (An heir of source)

There is no story, that we don't interpret/re'create/realize
according to our own inclinations and dispositions.

If a Myth does not propel you to BECOME Your Own Higher Self,
it is worthless.
An effective My'thology should put YOU in the HERO seat.

For me, Christianity is about the BECOMING of Christhood in you.
Your OWN Christhood. Yes, You, "The Christ",
no more or less than Our Story's Hero --Yashua/Jesus.

In the end, YOU must be the Hero, the Christ.
The story is only a blueprint.

This, of course, is according to, and a reflection of my Own personal Outlook.

 

[Valjean]

No True Christian!

Is a Christian a Christian because he calls himself a Christian? If so, the crusaders were certainly Christians, as were the paramilitaries of the Thirty Years War, the Inquisitors, the witch hunters, the Ku Klux Klan, and both sides in just about any European or American war you can name.

These were not adherents to the precepts Jesus outlined in his sermons on the plain and on the mount. These are, at best, fans.

Personally, I find such a loose definition problematic, if a definition at all. I think we need a technical definition, as it were; a core set of beliefs and principles -- in imitation of Christ.

 

[Eagle]

People create their Own versions of Jesus/Christ/Christianity
which they can then follow. (without insurmountable conflict)
(as their version fits their own agendas, needs, ideals, ideas, and wants)
Really they are just following their Own Ideals,
packaged in an "authoritative" power play/my'thology.
Or, they choose/have thrust upon them, some version or another (of Christianity)
that crushes them, their spirit, as they cannot live up to it's commands, commandments, and doctrines.

If we all were to TRULY FOLLOW in the ways/being/practice of a Christ,
we would all/each/ourSelves BE Christs.

Unfortunately mainstream christianity encourages sheeple,
where there should be gods.

DEPTH of I'mITation, is key-- when it comes to BECOMING Following,
as opposed to "tagging along behind" following.

I see the Jesus character as a Magus.
yes. A Source'heir'er. (An heir of source)

There is no story, that we don't interpret/re'create/realize
according to our own inclinations and dispositions.

If a Myth does not propel you to BECOME Your Own Higher Self,
it is worthless.
An effective My'thology should put YOU in the HERO seat.

For me, Christianity is about the BECOMING of Christhood in you.
Your OWN Christhood. Yes, You, "The Christ",
no more or less than Our Story's Hero --Yashua/Jesus.

In the end, YOU must be the Hero, the Christ.
The story is only a blueprint.

This, of course, is according to, and a reflection of my Own personal Outlook.

A person does not have any idea how an apple tastes without tasting it, so as long as you don't have Jesus Christ in your life that person will have a similar understanding as what you have just given us.

Jesus Christ is real, I have become an active Christian after being a passive Christian for probably 30 years, He is now a lot more real than ever before, He hears my prayers and signs and wonders is actually following me according to His Word, Mark 16:17.

It is very exciting and truly no myth.........it is not about me, but all about my God, I am obedient and all the glory goes to Him.

Christianity is not about becoming Christ, but rather to strive to be as Christ(holy) following His teachings, for Christ is God and there is only one God, it is also about ministering to their fellow man, to help those who are in need and share the joy of Salvation to others, explaining to them that it is free for anyone that is interested no matter about their past.

This is some of my views and understanding of being a follower of Jesus Christ ......if you are a follower you should also be a fan of Jesus Christ, for I am both.