Are you a liar?

[Redemptionsong]

Do you believe that we must be Born of Water? Is being Born of Water the First Covenant/Old Covenant?

I believe that water baptism is a baptism unto repentance. This is the human side of the covenant in Christ. God responds to genuine repentance with baptism in the Holy Spirit, sometimes received through the laying on of hands.

 

[Elihoenai]

I believe that water baptism is a baptism unto repentance. This is the human side of the covenant in Christ. God responds to genuine repentance with baptism in the Holy Spirit, sometimes received through the laying on of hands.

Luke 1:5

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth


Given that you bear the Image of the Earthly you must partake in the Earthly Ministry. Moses is a Levite and the parents of John the Baptist are Levites. Have you read and understood the book Hebrews?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Luke 1:5

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth


Given that you bear the Image of the Earthly you must partake in the Earthly Ministry. Moses is a Levite and the parents of John the Baptist are Levites. Have you read and understood the book Hebrews?

What point are you making?

 

[sayak83]

The Biblical story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal is interesting because it's the story of a prophet who wishes to demonstrate to lsrael that his god is the one true God. The prophets of Baal (pl. Baalim, a god identified by some as Molech) take up the challenge and meet with Elijah at Mt. Carmel. The story is told in 1 Kings 18.

The outcome of the challenge was that Elijah's God shows himself to be powerful and true, and the people recognise that they've been deceived by the prophets of Baal.These prophets are then put to death.

I believe that it's still possible to distinguish the true God from false gods by the power that God manifests through His intervention in this world, particularly in the realm of deliverance and healing.

How can you tell that your gods are true?

You also talked about miracles. I am personally skeptical of all miracle claims from all religions and do not base my beliefs on them. However, Hindu devotees regularly report many miracles that happen to them through the intervention of God. Here is one. It is a more believable claim because a) It was reported on a major newspaper b) Happened publicly c) Happened to a family whose names and identities are provided with immediate after the fact testimony and reporting. A boy who could speak for many years started to speak upon visit to a famous temple.
Miracle at Tirumala: Lord Balaji Restores Speech to Dumb Youth!

If your criteria of authenticity is the presence of miraculous healing, this should serve as very strong evidence for the reality of Hindu God(s).

 

[F1fan]

My preferred Bible translation is the Young's Literal Translation and that's what I used previously to show Scripture in Jude. Also use King James version. As close as possible to the original Hebrew and Greek Scriptures is the best.

I find it odd that there are numerous interpretations and translations of the Bible. But since the Christian Bible has so many copying and editing errors over the millennia that there's not way to have any original text to work with. Trying to argue a literalist interpretation of any Bible story in modern times is going to be problematic without verifiable supporting evidence. There just isn't any. Even Christianity itself has evolved vastly over millennia that the traditions of faith don't have any staying power.

Religion is not Irrelevant and Absurd to those with Power who Dominate the World.

And this is why we need to keep religious out of politics, as the Founding Fathers realized in the USA. We see the recent extremes policies by the GOP as influenced by Christian extremists, the attempts to ban gay rights, the fear and restriction of trans people, the bans on books, the bans of reproduction rights, the organized conspiracy to install judges at many levels, but mostly the Supreme Court to turn back liberties due to religious beliefs. The USA is being harmed by the power the religious right has attained through the GOP.

 

[F1fan]

I think l'm correct in saying that the children of lsrael were not slaves for the entire period of their sojourning in Egypt. They were growing in numbers and prosperity before a particular pharaoh decided to enslave them.

Can you admit that the depiction in the Bible is not accurate historically?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I think many see humanists as people who only reason - perhaps like Star Trek's Mr. Spock, who has no emotion and loves nothing. That is incorrect.

It makes this Trekkie cry, lol. Vulcans have emotions. They just suppress them for religious reasons.

 

[F1fan]

It's clear from the behaviour of the people that this was not a staged event. In fact, with a bit of research it shouldn't be hard to locate where it was filmed, or the identity of the robed man.

To suggest that people go to such lengths to deceive others is hardly a Godly thing to do. Why would a person undermine the very faith they hope to proclaim? Your argument makes no sense.

Look at the companies Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute, both of them exist to create deliberate fraud against science. They create disinformation about evolution and other related science for the purpose of spreading a religious view. And they profit from this fraud. It is legal due to the First Amendment, but they cause harm because they take advantage of Christians who don't know science and assume the AiG and DI are being truthful because they are Christian groups.

 

[F1fan]

It makes this Trekkie cry, lol. Vulcans have emotions. They just suppress them for religious reasons.

Are they suppressed according to Trek lore? I thought they just evolved to be less emotional.

It's interesting that Nemoy added the emotionally detached element of his character to create more of a distinctive contrast with Shatner. It was brilliant. In the original pilot Spock was vastly more emotional.

The reason humans are so emotional is due to our primitive emotion centers that still exist from our primitive past. Our fight or flight fear response mechanism isms are still intact, but we don't really need them any more. This overactive emotion center makes it difficult for people to function if they don't have high emotional intelligence and well developed reasoning skill.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Your emphasis on 'facts' and rejection of faith means you will forever live in your sin.

I worship the Truth, the Way, and the Life. If you worship the same, how on earth can you be uninterested in facts?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The point I'm making is that it's not an 'obvious simple fact'! A lie is not the truth. It's quite possible to believe a lie, and to repeat the lie to others. You may not think you're lying...until someone corrects you. Then you have no excuse. In a flash, you realise that you've been spreading lies!

John, inspired by God, is telling us that we're liars if we deny that Jesus is the Christ. You say that you are ignorant, in which case you should not continue to deny that Jesus is the Christ. It's better to withhold judgment than to deny that Jesus is not the Christ. Most sensible people will remain silent until they've investigated the issue properly.

If you insist on claiming that Jesus is not the Christ, you make yourself a liar in the words of John, who claimed his words were inspired by God.

I think John is lying.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The test, as to whether it is possible to 'cobble together' a convincing text is to set the task to just one writer...you. Imagine that you want to fabricate the existence of a Messiah. Where would you begin? What material would you use? How would you encourage others to write accounts that harmonised with yours?

Just the first chapter of the Gospel according to F1fan would be nice to see!

So you want one person to write a text like one written by many?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Well, this is in direct contradiction to what Jesus teaches his disciples. Jesus said, 'there is none good but one, that is, God'. If only God is good, it means that all men are sinners

Then you can’t trust the authors.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I've shown you from the scriptures that David was chosen by a prophet, Samuel, and was anointed well before being crowned as king. When David was anointed by Samuel it was 'in the midst of his brethren'.

It's the same with Jesus. He was chosen from the 'stem of Jesse' and anointed by a prophet already mentioned in the books of the Prophets [Malachi 3:1; lsaiah 40:3-5].

Shouldn’t be hard to descend from David considering he probably slept with the entire kingdom.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Nice try, but the choice is between the righteousness of man and the righteousness of God.

IMO, the Jews (and l am not a Jew) were made guardians of the oracles of God, and it is these oracles that contain the unbroken truth of God's prophets.

I know of no other scripture that covers the complete life of the present 'heaven and earth', following one particular people, lsrael, from it's inception to its glory.

Read more than one thing?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

You may be edging toward the lunatic fringe by claiming that Jesus never existed.

He didn't claim that. He said, "Jesus isn’t known to exist," and that is correct, largely because what constitutes a historical Jesus is fluid, and just about any itinerant rabbi in the Levant 2000 years ago can be said to be Jesus. Who wouldn't qualify given the believer's propensity to make whatever he has fit with whatever he believes? Of course that was Jesus. Yeah, his name was actually Emmanuel, and he only had three disciples, two women, but that's him! It's metaphor, allegory. Unbelievers just don't possess the necessary skills to see that, what with not having the counsel of the Spirit. That's how it's done.

Nor would he be a lunatic for so claiming if he did, certainly no more than those who claim Jesus was resurrected.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter how much of the story of Jesus is fact or fiction if the supernatural aspects are not accepted. If this wasn't a deity or channeling a deity, what difference does it make who wrote those words? Somebody did. Once divinity is removed, the source becomes irrelevant, and the words have to be judged on their own merit, just like with Socrates. Was there a historic Socrates, or did Plato invent him as a literary device to speak through?

What difference would it make either way? What difference does it make if there was a historical Socrates. The words attributed to him stand or fall on their own with or without a historic Socrates, and really all other literature. What if Shakespeare was really two nuns? It wouldn't matter for the same reason that it doesn't matter if Jesus was myth (all invented) or legend (some historical truth mixed with fiction). The historicity of Jesus, Socrates, and Shakespeare are interesting subjects, but it doesn't matter what the verdict is. Just like with this post. It doesn't matter who I am. The words stand or fall on their own.

If the prophets speak God's words then to deny the Bible is to deny God!

And if they don't? If there is no God and the prophets are only speaking as any of us might except speaking through the literary device of a deity, then the Bible is reduced to the same status as Jesus if there was no resurrection, and to deny it's divinity is to have concluded correctly. At this level, the scriptures fall apart. Without faith and a faith-based confirmation bias to read scripture through, there is nothing there of value to the humanist except to consider it as literature or a cultural phenomenon - secular studies also appropriate for studying the Iliad.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Can you admit that the depiction in the Bible is not accurate historically?

I'm sure it is historically accurate.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I worship the Truth, the Way, and the Life. If you worship the same, how on earth can you be uninterested in facts?

Has a man ever seen God? According to God's word, is a man justified by his factual knowledge, or by his faith?

 

[Redemptionsong]

He didn't claim that. He said, "Jesus isn’t known to exist," and that is correct, largely because what constitutes a historical Jesus is fluid, and just about any itinerant rabbi in the Levant 2000 years ago can be said to be Jesus. Who wouldn't qualify given the believer's propensity to make whatever he has fit with whatever he believes? Of course that was Jesus. Yeah, his name was actually Emmanuel, and he only had three disciples, two women, but that's him! It's metaphor, allegory. Unbelievers just don't possess the necessary skills to see that, what with not having the counsel of the Spirit. That's how it's done.

Nor would he be a lunatic for so claiming if he did, certainly no more than those who claim Jesus was resurrected.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter how much of the story of Jesus is fact or fiction if the supernatural aspects are not accepted. If this wasn't a deity or channeling a deity, what difference does it make who wrote those words? Somebody did. Once divinity is removed, the source becomes irrelevant, and the words have to be judged on their own merit, just like with Socrates. Was there a historic Socrates, or did Plato invent him as a literary device to speak through?

What difference would it make either way? What difference does it make if there was a historical Socrates. The words attributed to him stand or fall on their own with or without a historic Socrates, and really all other literature. What if Shakespeare was really two nuns? It wouldn't matter for the same reason that it doesn't matter if Jesus was myth (all invented) or legend (some historical truth mixed with fiction). The historicity of Jesus, Socrates, and Shakespeare are interesting subjects, but it doesn't matter what the verdict is. Just like with this post. It doesn't matter who I am. The words stand or fall on their own.



And if they don't? If there is no God and the prophets are only speaking as any of us might except speaking through the literary device of a deity, then the Bible is reduced to the same status as Jesus if there was no resurrection, and to deny it's divinity is to have concluded correctly. At this level, the scriptures fall apart. Without faith and a faith-based confirmation bias to read scripture through, there is nothing there of value to the humanist except to consider it as literature or a cultural phenomenon - secular studies also appropriate for studying the Iliad.

Yes, faith is the key, lMO. You can receive Christ by faith, trusting the Holy Spirit, or you can deny him.

If you're not interested in the possibility of eternal life for your soul, then stick to reading secular books.

If you think you know the Gospel, and you reject the message, then that's the end of the matter. You, like the rest of us, will face death in the knowledge that choices were made.

Celebrate being a humanist, while you can. Eat, drink, and be merry!

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Who do you think it was that freed the Hebrews from slavery?

Who waited for 400 years and then hardened pharaoh’s heart to prevent their immediate release?