Are you a liar?

[Redemptionsong]

It is doubtful that many Jews give any credence to either Matthew or Luke. They are looking for a king (anointed), who will lord over the nations/Gentiles (Zechariah 14:16) and shepherd Israel, the combined tribes of Ephraim (the 10 northern tribes) and Judah (the 3 southern tribes, including Levi (Ezekiel 34:22-24 & 37:22-24)). That hasn't happened, and will not happen until the "end of the age", when the "tares", including the Gentile church, those who "commit lawlessness", are gathered and thrown into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:39-42)
Matthew list 42 generations from Abraham to the time of Christ, yet there aren't 42 named. As for the message of Yeshua, to be a "son of God", one must do the will of God. The god of Christianity is Paul, and he is a son of Benjamin, according to Paul. Another son of Benjamin, was king Saul, Paul's predecessor, who tried to kill David. Paul tried to kill Yeshua's followers, but as with king Saul, he failed. Those who claim killers of saints as their fathers, such as Paul, will wind up having the blood of the saints on their heads. (Matthew 23:29-35).

Paul may have tried to kill the followers of Jesus, but his conversion was a very real and powerful event.

Still, l haven't heard your explanation of how a man is saved. Am l correct in thinking that, according to your Gospel, that baptism in the Holy Spirit is part of a false teaching?

 

[Redemptionsong]

You have a bad habit of trying to ignore evidence that goes against your beliefs about the Bible. You can't ask us to follow your bad habit and be credible and honest in debate. You need to address the serious problems about the Bible that others bring up. You ignoring these problems only points to bad faith.

You have to be somewhat aware that your beliefs are taking a huge hit in this debate. No one is saying you can't believe in your dogma. What you cannot do is post what you believe and imply others are wrong to not agree with you, and then offer no explanation why.

I'm reminded of the title of this thread: Are you a liar?

Yes, the liar is the one who denies the truth.

What truth do you claim l'm denying?

 

[2ndpillar]

Paul may have tried to kill the followers of Jesus, but his conversion was a very real and powerful event.

Still, l haven't heard your explanation of how a man is saved. Am l correct in thinking that, according to your Gospel, that baptism in the Holy Spirit is part of a false teaching?

No one has been saved in the sense of Joel 2:31-32. The "day of the LORD" has not arrived, therefore there are no "survivors" from that future event. Paul's conversion is laid out by Paul, and apparently his supposed associate Luke. Paul was blind and his party was apparently blind and deaf, depending on what version of that story you read. No one does any legal killing in the Roman empire without a warrant from the Roman empire. Paul, a supposed relative of Herod, therefore was tracking down heretics under a Roman warrant. He apparently participated in the killing of Stephen, per the story told by some unknown author, which was probably sourced from Paul. Baptism by the Holy Spirit is real, but a lot of things stated by the devil and Paul are real as well. The devil quoted Psalms 91 quite well, but his intent was to corrupt Yeshua. Is baptism by water real? Apparently Paul only baptized one person. Why he even bothered, if he did, is up for debate. Apparently, according to Romans 7, he didn't repent, for he says he didn't sin, but the evil that dwells in him did all the sinning, so what does he have to repent of.

 

[Subduction Zone]

To me, the Bible is evidence of God. I do not believe that the Bible could have written by men without the inspiration of God.

That is a mistake on your.part. There are parts of it that cannot be taken literally since they never happened. And why on Earth would you think that it couldn't be written by average men?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Paul may have tried to kill the followers of Jesus, but his conversion was a very real and powerful event.

Still, l haven't heard your explanation of how a man is saved. Am l correct in thinking that, according to your Gospel, that baptism in the Holy Spirit is part of a false teaching?

Once again: How would he have done that?

 

[Elihoenai]

I think it's important to have fellowship with other believers, and l do this whenever possible.

Yes, l accept all the spiritual gifts as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12, alongside the 'fruits' of the Spirit. I believe the gifts are for the Church as a body, and don't think that each individual believer should manifest all nine gifts. The purpose is to support the ministry 'with power'. I do speak in tongues but believe my calling is to teach and heal.

I am aware that there have been abuses of power and of the gifts, and Paul spoke about such abuses in his letters to the Corinthians. The final word seems to be, 'Let things be done decently and in order'.

I have found the writings of such Pentecostalists as Smith Wigglesworth, Maria Woodworth-Etter and Oral Roberts to be very helpful. They tend to emphasise the need for faith in all that we undertake.

When you talk about the Earthly Levitical duties and sacrifices do you mean 'in Spirit' or 'in the flesh'?

Leviticus 16:23-24

23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:

24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.

John 3:6

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Those so-called Spiritual Gifts you say you have accepted are the Not the Real Spiritual Gifts Paul is talking about given you have not practiced the Levitical Priesthood.

Do any of the writers you are talking about teach about the requirement for observing the Law of Moses and the Levitical Priesthood?

The Earthly Levitical Duties and Sacrifices are "in the Flesh".

 

[Elihoenai]

So Christians dominate despite being less than half of the population?

Matthew 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has Dominion over all the World. This Dominion is ordained by Elohim/God. You don't have to be or view yourself as Christian to be under the control of Christians. Can you see this?

 

[Redemptionsong]

No one has been saved in the sense of Joel 2:31-32. The "day of the LORD" has not arrived, therefore there are no "survivors" from that future event. Paul's conversion is laid out by Paul, and apparently his supposed associate Luke. Paul was blind and his party was apparently blind and deaf, depending on what version of that story you read. No one does any legal killing in the Roman empire without a warrant from the Roman empire. Paul, a supposed relative of Herod, therefore was tracking down heretics under a Roman warrant. He apparently participated in the killing of Stephen, per the story told by some unknown author, which was probably sourced from Paul. Baptism by the Holy Spirit is real, but a lot of things stated by the devil and Paul are real as well. The devil quoted Psalms 91 quite well, but his intent was to corrupt Yeshua. Is baptism by water real? Apparently Paul only baptized one person. Why he even bothered, if he did, is up for debate. Apparently, according to Romans 7, he didn't repent, for he says he didn't sin, but the evil that dwells in him did all the sinning, so what does he have to repent of.

Let's stick to one point at a time.

The 'day of the LORD' has not arrived, but salvation is a process that has a beginning and a completion. When do you think the process of salvation begins?

 

[Elihoenai]

What I love about this type of response is that it makes God incompetent.

Isaiah 45:7

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

To the contrary. The Devil/Satan is Elohim's/God's instrument to Try the Saints and to Punish Evildoers. Elohim/God has total Power and Authority over the Satan/Devil.

 

[Redemptionsong]

That is a mistake on your.part. There are parts of it that cannot be taken literally since they never happened. And why on Earth would you think that it couldn't be written by average men?

It took about 1500 years to complete the canon of scripture (the Christian Bible). This is from Moses to John. There are 40 or more prophets involved in the writing. Yet the message is consistent and coherent.

I don't think it is possible for 40 or more false prophets to agree on a scripture that is both reliable and consistent. Do you?

 

[Subduction Zone]

It took about 1500 years to complete the canon of scripture (the Christian Bible). This is from Moses to John. There are 40 or more prophets involved in the writing. Yet the message is consistent and coherent.

I don't think it is possible for 40 or more false prophets to agree on a scripture that is both reliable and consistent. Do you?

Nope. Moses is a fictional character in the Bible. The Bible itself has a much shorter history. And the Jews, you remember them. They are the ones that wrote the Old Testament, they would disagree about your interpretation of their work.

Why do insist on treating the Bible as a piece of cheap fan fiction?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Do any of the writers you are talking about teach about the requirement for observing the Law of Moses and the Levitical Priesthood?

I have a book called 'The Holiest of All' by Andrew Murray, which speaks the truth to me about the teaching of the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Here is an excerpt:
'Our Lord Jesus learned obedience by the things which He suffered. Through this obedience He was made perfect, and became the cause of eternal salvation to all that obey Him. So he entered heaven as our High priest, a Son, perfected for evermore.
The word perfect is one of the keywords of the Epistle. It occurs thirteen times. Four times in regard to the Old Testament, which could make nothing perfect (vii.19). Sacrifices that cannot, as touching the conscience, make the worshipper perfect (ix.9). The law can never make perfect them that draw nigh (x.1). That apart from us they should not be made perfect (xi.40). As great as is the difference between a promise and its fulfilment, or hope and the thing hoped for, between the shadow and substance, is the difference between the Old and New Testament. The law made nothing perfect: it was only meant to point to something better, to the perfection Jesus Christ was to bring.'

I believe we have to be careful not to slip back into a form of legalism, brought about by a misunderstanding of what Christ came to bring.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Nope. Moses is a fictional character in the Bible. The Bible itself has a much shorter history. And the Jews, you remember them. They are the ones that wrote the Old Testament, they would disagree about your interpretation of their work.

Why do insist on treating the Bible as a piece of cheap fan fiction?

I treat the Bible as the written word of God. It's you that has no respect for the Bible.

Let's take a look at the nativity, and see whether the record found in the Bible is a 'myth' (by which you probably mean 'lie' or 'falsehood').

Where do you think this 'myth' begins, and ends?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Once again: How would he have done that?

Saul of Tarsus, as an zealous upholder of the law, had support from the synagogues in the places he visited. On his way to Damascus, he not only had a guard of his own, but he speaks about the synagogues that he intends to visit in Damascus.

Acts 9:1,2. 'And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.'

Saul was the only one amongst the group riding to Damascus that was blinded. The others heard a voice, but saw nothing. [Acts 9:7]

 

[Subduction Zone]

I treat the Bible as the written word of God. It's you that has no respect for the Bible.

Let's take a look at the nativity, and see whether the record found in the Bible is a 'myth' (by which you probably mean 'lie' or 'falsehood').

Where do you think this 'myth' begins, and ends?

No, no, no. You treat it like some treat the Harry Potter series. The Nativity myth in Luke is quite different from that in Matthew. You should read and compare the two some day. Luke makes more than one clear error. His dating is a mess. He has Mary and Joseph take a long trip that they never would have have to have made in reality. It is pure myth. Why did he do it? So he could claim that Jesus was born in Bethlehem to match a prophecy. That he did "lie", if you insist, is demonstrated by the details that he used.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Saul of Tarsus, as an zealous upholder of the law, had support from the synagogues in the places he visited. On his way to Damascus, he not only had a guard of his own, but he speaks about the synagogues that he intends to visit in Damascus.

Acts 9:1,2. 'And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.'

Saul was the only one amongst the group riding to Damascus that was blinded. The others heard a voice, but saw nothing. [Acts 9:7]

Yeah, that does not work so well when you leave your country and go to another one that does not share your religious beliefs. Those stories are likely false too. Just try it today. A person from London would have a very difficult time trying to arrest people in France that broke a British law that was not a crime in France. Once again it appears to be mythical.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

John 3:5

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


@Redemptionsong Do you have the Scripture that supports your statement that a "Saint is a Born Again Believer"? Are you saying that you are a Saint? Do you agree with Yeshua/Jesus when he instructs to be Born of Water and of the Spirit? You appear to be rejecting the requirement for John the Baptist water Baptism.

Jesus…. Y’all know there is more to the Bible than Paul and John?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Why would l agree? Your philosophy of life is based on subjectivism. You're asking me to choose between you and God! Is that a choice?

Can you not see that Adam's sin was like yours. He thought he knew better than God!

Subjective love is self-love. Objective love is true righteousness.

Why bring Adam and Eve into it? The one who knew that the truth was that the fruit gave superpowers was the serpent and God got caught in a lie.

 

[F1fan]

Yes, the liar is the one who denies the truth.

What truth do you claim l'm denying?

You are denying we critical thinkers as we point out your Christian dogma not only lacks evidence, but is contrary to what we know of reality.

Can you admit your religious beliefs are no factual? Can you admit they are not factually true?

 

[F1fan]

I'm not ignoring evidence, l'm demonstrating from the Bible itself that your accusations are without foundation!

This is a logical fallacy. Your beliefs about the Bible are true because the Bible says so. It's circular reasoning. The Bible and your beliefs about the Bible are the CLAIMS. You need evidence and reasoning to support your beliefs, which you don't do. No Christian can.