Are you a liar?

[Redemptionsong]

It's not really a conclusion.

My disbelief is the result of having grown up in a judeo-christian culture, learning about the religion, hearing theists talk about their religion and then making the observation that there is zero evidence for it and thus no rational reason to believe it.

I'ld have to severely lower my standards of what constitute sufficient reason to believe something, for me to become a christian. And it would also put me in a predicament because according to that lowered standard, I would also have to believe every other religion. And things like astrology, homeopathy, sceance reading, tarrot cards, voodoo, alien abduction, bigfoot, that Elvis is still alive, etc etc etc etc etc....


So to conclude: my atheism is the result of the total lack of any kind of verifiable evidence in support of the claims of theism.

It is the result of not being convinced of the claims of theism. So I don't believe those claims.


You may make your fallacious argument now. Don't forget the strawman.

Well, you make a clear claim to being an atheist. This suggests you know what it is you don't believe.

I'm asking whether you have ever checked the biblical evidence on whether Jesus is the 'Anointed One' of God.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, you make a clear claim to being an atheist.

Not a claim. Rather just a fact. I'm unconvinced of the claims of theism and thus don't believe those claims.
That makes me an atheist by default. "claims" don't really come into this.

This suggests you know what it is you don't believe.

I know what it is that I don't believe, yes: the claims of theism.

I'm sure there are many things you don't believe either, so the concept shouldn't be alien to you.
For example, do you believe the claims of alien abduction and people undergoing weird anal sex experiments on board of flying saucers?

How about the claims of people who claim to have seen Elvis or Michael Jackson or 2Pac alive and well?
How about the claims of Tom Cruise concerning Scientology?

You don't believe these claims, right?

Reflect on your disbelief of these things and see if your comments here apply to your disbeliefs.
Upon finding out that they don't, perhaps try to step outside of your bible box and consider the possibility that my disbelief of you religious claims fall in the same category.

I'm asking whether you have ever checked the biblical evidence on whether Jesus is the 'Anointed One' of God.

Yes. Which is to say, I have checked the evidence that theists claimed to have. I found it all wanting, lacking and fallacious.

I also checked the evidence of how religions tend to originate. The psychology that underpins superstition. Etc.

All that together, tells me that religious claims aren't sufficiently supported to warrant belief and that on top of that, many of these claims are demonstrably wrong.


I suggest you get to your point soon, because I smell a serious derailment coming up.

 

[stanberger]

Being a "liar" in regards to what the Bible might promote depends on whether the person assumes the Bible is factual and truthful.

I don't assume the Bible is factual or truthful so I am exempt from this dilemma.

who is the real liar. Jesus ' worship our lord the one god only ' or church clergy who voted for trinity man/god at nicea 325ad ?

 

[stanberger]

Well, you make a clear claim to being an atheist. This suggests you know what it is you don't believe.

I'm asking whether you have ever checked the biblical evidence on whether Jesus is the 'Anointed One' of God.

bible ' god is not man. he who dies on a cross is cursed '

 

[stvdv]

I, too, am a Gentile, like yourself. Nevertheless, I accept that God chose Abraham and his descendants (through Jacob / Israel) as his people. It was to this people that God's Law was revealed, and through whom the Messiah would come.

Okay. So, that means we differ from opinion.
I can live with that

 

[stvdv]

Is Krishna the Messiah promised through the Davidic line? Clearly not.

Maybe not, maybe Krishna is (Advaita POV)
First I have to see the Messiah before I believe
Again, it seems we have to agree to disagree

Another way of discerning the true Messiah is in the message and teaching of Christ. Does Krishna claim to be able to save from sin and death? Does Krishna baptise in the Holy Spirit?

Definitely

Krishna is able to save from sin and death

 

[stvdv]

Does Krishna baptise in the Holy Spirit?

Bathing in the name of Krishna = baptise to me

So, another one probable to agree to disagree

Thank you for your replies

I do hope that the Messiah comes soon
We can use some Holiness in our messy world

By the way, I do know that Christ is for real. Once I was blessed and He revealed quite a bit of His Glory, Light and Majesty.

The wonderful part of it was, that I was in a Church where they sung for ca. 12 hours non stop, but because I didn't know the hymns, I recited a Hindu Mantra non stop (almost)

Jesus proved to me that I was on the right track

So, I know for a fact:
"Jesus does not discriminate", He accepts Hinduism

 

[stanberger]

Okay. So, that means we differ from opinion.
I can live with that

Okay. So, that means we differ from opinion.
I can live with that

70 percent of Israelis are secular/atheists today. they broke the covenant for the worldly benefits instead. I left church fr islam 2002. muslims the only folks left on earth staying close to word of god

 

[stanberger]

Bathing in the name of Krishna = baptise to me

So, another one probable to agree to disagree

Thank you for your replies

I do hope that the Messiah comes soon
We can use some Holiness in our messy world

By the way, I do know that Christ is for real. Once I was blessed and He revealed quite a bit of His Glory, Light and Majesty.

The wonderful part of it was, that I was in a Church where they sung for ca. 12 hours non stop, but because I didn't know the hyms, I recited a Hindu Mantra non stop (almost)

Jesus proved to me that I was on the right track

So, I know for a fact:
"Jesus does not discriminate", He accepts Hinduism

 

[stanberger]

christianity and hinduism are equal in that they worship 3 main gods

 

[F1fan]

who is the real liar. Jesus ' worship our lord the one god only ' or church clergy who voted for trinity man/god at nicea 325ad ?

Perhaps both. It's not as if theists give us consistent explanations about their God and beliefs. Someone has to be wrong if just one is correct. The advantage that religion has is also a huge disadvantage, and the is the lack of evidence. Theists get to make up and believe an unlimited set of options. This is why Christianity has about 44,000 sects of the "truth". That's a lot of disagreement about what the Bible says. It makes a critical mind very suspicious they aren't really onto something.

 

[F1fan]

christianity and hinduism are equal in that they worship 3 main gods

Well, not entirely true. Not all Christians believe the Trinity version of God. And those who do describe it as three persons in one God.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Not a claim. Rather just a fact. I'm unconvinced of the claims of theism and thus don't believe those claims.
That makes me an atheist by default. "claims" don't really come into this.



I know what it is that I don't believe, yes: the claims of theism.

I'm sure there are many things you don't believe either, so the concept shouldn't be alien to you.
For example, do you believe the claims of alien abduction and people undergoing weird anal sex experiments on board of flying saucers?

How about the claims of people who claim to have seen Elvis or Michael Jackson or 2Pac alive and well?
How about the claims of Tom Cruise concerning Scientology?

You don't believe these claims, right?

Reflect on your disbelief of these things and see if your comments here apply to your disbeliefs.
Upon finding out that they don't, perhaps try to step outside of your bible box and consider the possibility that my disbelief of you religious claims fall in the same category.




Yes. Which is to say, I have checked the evidence that theists claimed to have. I found it all wanting, lacking and fallacious.

I also checked the evidence of how religions tend to originate. The psychology that underpins superstition. Etc.

All that together, tells me that religious claims aren't sufficiently supported to warrant belief and that on top of that, many of these claims are demonstrably wrong.


I suggest you get to your point soon, because I smell a serious derailment coming up.

If you reject the claims of theism you must have extensive knowledge of those claims.

I'm wanting to know, in view of what John stated about liars, whether you have investigated the issue of Jesus as the Jewish Messiah.

 

[stvdv]

70 percent of Israelis are secular/atheists today. they broke the covenant for the worldly benefits instead. I left church fr islam 2002. muslims the only folks left on earth staying close to word of god

It's not only the worldly benefits

The Church imposed fear on all. Fear of sin and fear of God. Many could not read and therefore could not free themselves from fear. Now all can read, and all have internet. Lack of is gone. Knowledge helps to set free.

Still lack of Wisdom. But that will come. Deep inside all want to Know what needs to be known

 

[stanberger]

Perhaps both. It's not as if theists give us consistent explanations about their God and beliefs. Someone has to be wrong if just one is correct. The advantage that religion has is also a huge disadvantage, and the is the lack of evidence. Theists get to make up and believe an unlimited set of options. This is why Christianity has about 44,000 sects of the "truth". That's a lot of disagreement about what the Bible says. It makes a critical mind very suspicious they aren't really onto something.

plenty of evidence for theists in quran.

Perhaps both. It's not as if theists give us consistent explanations about their God and beliefs. Someone has to be wrong if just one is correct. The advantage that religion has is also a huge disadvantage, and the is the lack of evidence. Theists get to make up and believe an unlimited set of options. This is why Christianity has about 44,000 sects of the "truth". That's a lot of disagreement about what the Bible says. It makes a critical mind very suspicious they aren't really onto something.

theists have a lot of evidence in quran ....we know an illiterate man from the desert could not have known about evolution. Big Bang theory. universe expanding. blastocyst etc

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I'm sorry that you've been treated badly, but l think it's wrong to blame the Lord.

Atheists don't do that.

Can you tell me of anything that Jesus said, or did, that does not convey his compassion for mankind, or his righteousness?

She just told you that she was abused and nobody was there to show her compassion including Jesus. You evaluate these stories from the perspective of one who assumes that Jesus exists and is perfectly good whatever happens. The skeptic uses his own standards of right and wrong to make those judgments, and does do after reading the stories, not before like the apologist. From that perspective, none of this seems as praiseworthy as it is to the person who begins with that assumption and evaluates the stories in the light of that being a given.

To deny that Jesus is the Christ one must have some knowledge of Jesus, and also what is meant by the title 'Christ'.

No. If the theist wants to make a claim, it is his duty to specify what he is saying is the case, that is, what those words mean to him. Every theist has a different god. There is no knowledge of Jesus, just faith-based beliefs asserted as fact without evidence.

Ultimately, Jesus Christ is a divider. He divides mankind into two camps. Those that are with him, and those that are against him. At judgment, there is no 'fence' to sit on!

And I suppose you find that praiseworthy because you believe Jesus does that, so it must be wonderful and true and good and right. But the unbeliever judges the action on its own merit, and if a humanist, finds such an attitude abhorrent. This is Trump's attitude. Anybody that doesn't agree with him and praise him is his enemy and will taste his wrath. This is also the attitude of the leaders of dangerous cults. It's why the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and scientologists shun or persecute people trying to get out. They become enemies by virtue of not being enthusiastic supporters. It's also the attitude of an abusive spouse if one tries to get out of the relationship, who treats such a person as the enemy worthy of retribution.

It's not any more admirable when Jesus is said to be the same unless you've decided in advance that whatever Jesus does is admirable, and humanists don't think like that.

When a person has faith in one God, they have an authority above. This makes justice, and mercy, meaningfu

You don't understand the unbeliever's mind. You're like many other theists who has learned that the unbeliever has no inner life. He cannot be moral. He cannot be spiritual. He has no meaning or purpose in his life.

The story of the fall is a story about human self-righteousness.

Disagree.

The story of the fall is the story of a religion that posits a perfect God and a world of pain and suffering, and sets out to reconcile these two by blaming man for it. Like so much of the Bible, it's an explanation for why God has allowed suffering to befall mankind, which is always because man deserved it. In this case, if one wonders why God didn't give man a better life, why he must scrape and scratch to eke out a meager existence characterized by toil, suffering and death, he is told that God did give man all of that, but man was unworthy and lost it.

It's a pervasive biblical theme. Why did God nearly sterilize the earth with a flood? Wicked man deserved it. Why do we speak so many languages? Punishment for sin. Why were Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed? You know.

One of the most off-putting aspects of this worldview is its continual demonization of mankind. What you call self-righteousness a humanist would call healthy human behavior. We expect and encourage children to be curious and to experiment under the guidance of adult supervision. The incurious and meek lag behind. Humanism is about making the human condition better. It sees the potential in man and wants to nurture it, not continually demean him with words like self-righteous.

Do you know who that word applies to? People who see themselves as morally superior. People that tell others that they have no basis for morality, or that they an inferior morality because it doesn't come from their book. They tend to use language like "no foundation" to describe those that don't hold their beliefs, and declare that such people cannot be moral, spiritual, or have purpose in their lives.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

True for Krishna

I know my comment is slightly off-topic, but I wanted to tell you that your mention of Krishna reminds me of George.

Well, not entirely true. Not all Christians believe the Trinity version of God. And those who do describe it as three persons in one God.

You're right, F1fan. There has always been division among Christians who believe a different interpretation of the Bible, but various Christian sects like to claim that their preferred interpretation of the Bible is the correct one and other Christians are wrong. If you ask a group of diverse Christians the same theological question, then you'll hear different answers to the question, and they'll use the Bible to justify their beliefs. Why should unbelievers believe the Bible is accurate if Christians can't even agree on what is says?

She just told you that she was abused and nobody was there to show her compassion including Jesus. You evaluate these stories from the perspective of one who assumes that Jesus exists and is perfectly good whatever happens. The skeptic uses his own standards of right and wrong to make those judgments, and does do after reading the stories, not before like the apologist. From that perspective, none of this seems as praiseworthy as it is to the person who begins with that assumption and evaluates the stories in the light of that being a given.

Thank you for speaking up for me, my friend. I truly appreciate it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Thank you for speaking up for me, my friend. I truly appreciate it.

And kudos to you for taking a sad song and making it better.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

And kudos to you for taking a sad song and making it better.

I see what you did there.

 

[stvdv]

Don't you think that the all-knowing, all-powerful CREATOR is personally responsible? He has infinite power and infinite knowledge, and his creation does not.

True, no sane person will deny that, nor will the Creator, He is responsible for both good and bad

I've had my share of both good and challenging

I hope you will get lots of good from now on, as you've been gone through quite an ordeal I have to say, reading your post. Not easy, when all this happens when you are a baby onwards. I hope you believe in yourself...that is very important

I heard one Master once say "you were given your life, and you can do as you like with it, no one has the right to impose their (non) faith on you, or tell you that your (non) faith is wrong or even worse, tell you that you go to hell". This helped me to regain bit by bit my Self Confidence (still working on it)