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Are you a liar?

Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
Where in John does it say "the evangelist John" wrote this? Who is this evangelist John 70 years after Jesus parted?
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The issue of who wrote the NT books, and when they were written is an issue that requires a separate thread.

I don't accept the late dates given by some scholars.

No matter which of Jesus' disciples wrote the epistles of John, there is no doubt in my mind that he was filled with the Holy Spirit. All the writers of scripture wrote only words that were inspired, and the evidence for this is discovered by a study of the text from Genesis to Revelation. If God were not the higher author then there would be no integrity, consistency and coherence between the prophecies of OT and the NT. But, as Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken'.
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Redemptionsong said:
The evangelist John asks a very challenging question in his first epistle (1 John 2:22). He asks, 'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

He goes on to say, 'He is an anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:'

Strong words from a man who preached a God of love!

But, how does one arrive at the position that a man is a liar if he denies that Jesus is Christ? I guess the opening premise is that God is Truth [Deut. 32:4 etc]. From here one can reasonably deduce that God's Word is true, and that Christ, coming from God, is the Word of God [Rev. 19:13]. If this be the case, then a denial of Christ is a denial of truth [John 14:6]. To deny truth is to make truth a lie. Is this, therefore, the unforgivable sin?

Christ deniers really have no rock to stand on when 'truth' becomes a victim, as happens in war. Where is the hope of justice if there is no God to hear your cry? If your daughter is raped and murdered by soldiers, or your son tortured, tied and shot in the back of the head, how do you respond? Hate and seek revenge? Add your vitriol to the great hell of war? Seek justice from courts that may never provide justice? Give up on life itself, with no hope of glory?

I'm with Paul, who said, 'For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.' [Phil.1:21]
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Even if I bend over backwards and assume the bible story is true, then still this position is not valid.

A lie is when one says or claims something that one KNOWS isn't true.
If a person is just mistaken / misinformed / whatever, then the person isn't telling a lie. Then (s)he's just wrong.
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
stvdv said:
And I ask, "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Krishna is the Christ (as in Savior)"
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It's a fair question. The answer must lie in the authority given by God. For Jesus, the Law, Prophets and Writings attest to his coming. Jesus claims this authority in a demonstration of prophetic speech and miraculous power.

What authority, and what evidence, supports the claim that Krishna is the Christ?
 
stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member
Redemptionsong said:
It's a fair question
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:cool:

Redemptionsong said:
The answer must lie in the authority given by God. For Jesus, the Law, Prophets and Writings attest to his coming. Jesus claims this authority in a demonstration
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True for Jesus

True for Krisna

Redemptionsong said:
What authority, and what evidence, supports the claim that Krishna is the Christ?
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I have plenty of evidence. Everyone can do some intense research, and will definitely find it.

BUT

I am perfectly fine if others don't believe this AND are to lazy OR feel no need OR ... etc.etc., to put in all the effort needed to get their proof

Because there is no need to have any proof
@stvdvRF1
 
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Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
Even if I bend over backwards and assume the bible story is true, then still this position is not valid.

A lie is when one says or claims something that one KNOWS isn't true.
If a person is just mistaken / misinformed / whatever, then the person isn't telling a lie. Then (s)he's just wrong.
Click to expand...
I think it's possible to live a lie without thinking of oneself as a liar. In the Bible, all men are considered to be sinners, but many will not acknowledge this either.

John is able to present the viewpoint of God in prophecy; and from God's viewpoint men who reject the truth make themselves liars - even if they themselves claim otherwise.
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
stvdv said:
:cool:


True or Jesus

True for Krisna


I have plenty of evidence. Everyone can do some intense research, and will definitely find it.

BUT

I am perfectly fine if others don't believe this AND are to lazy OR feel no need OR ... etc.etc., to put in all the effort needed to get their proof

Because there is no need to have any proof
@stvdvRF1
Click to expand...
We have evidence in scripture, and in the reality of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

How can the Law, Prophets and Writings be evidence for Krishna?
 
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stvdv

stvdv

Veteran Member
Redemptionsong said:
We have evidence in scripture, and in the reality of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

How can the Law, Prophets and Writings be evidence for Krishna?
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In India they also have: Law, Prophets, Writings

OR

Do you believe our good, fair, Dharmic Lord:
1) gives India inferior Scriptures
2) would not bless India, and only bless Israël?
2) discriminates, telling us to follow Dharma, Truth?
@stvdvRF1
 
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TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Redemptionsong said:
I think it's possible to live a lie without thinking of oneself as a liar. In the Bible, all men are considered to be sinners, but many will not acknowledge this either.

John is able to present the viewpoint of God in prophecy; and from God's viewpoint men who reject the truth make themselves liars - even if they themselves claim otherwise.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it. That's not what the meaning of the word "lie" is.

There is a difference between being "mistaken" and telling a "lie".

I'm sorry if you can't seem to comprehend this difference.
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
stvdv said:
In India they also have: Law, Prophets, Writings

OR

Do you believe our good, fair, Dharmic Lord:
1) gives India inferior Scriptures
2) would not bless India, and only bless Israël?
2) discriminates, telling us to follow Dharma, Truth?
@stvdvRF1
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I, too, am a Gentile, like yourself. Nevertheless, I accept that God chose Abraham and his descendants (through Jacob / Israel) as his people. It was to this people that God's Law was revealed, and through whom the Messiah would come.

Is Krishna the Messiah promised through the Davidic line? Clearly not.

Another way of discerning the true Messiah is in the message and teaching of Christ. Does Krishna claim to be able to save from sin and death? Does Krishna baptise in the Holy Spirit?
 
Redemptionsong

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
TagliatelliMonster said:
It doesn't matter how many times you repeat it. That's not what the meaning of the word "lie" is.

There is a difference between being "mistaken" and telling a "lie".

I'm sorry if you can't seem to comprehend this difference.
Click to expand...

Let's make this less ambiguous, and more personal. Do you believe that Jesus is Christ?
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Redemptionsong said:
I, too, am a Gentile, like yourself. Nevertheless, I accept that God chose Abraham and his descendants (through Jacob / Israel) as his people. It was to this people that God's Law was revealed, and through whom the Messiah would come.

Is Krishna the Messiah promised through the Davidic line? Clearly not.

Another way of discerning the true Messiah is in the message and teaching of Christ. Does Krishna claim to be able to save from sin and death? Does Krishna baptise in the Holy Spirit?
Click to expand...
To apply christian dogma's in order to evaluate the claims of rivaling religions, is the epitome of intellectual dishonesty.

If the Krishna's are right, then the christians are wrong by definition and in that case it matters not what the bible says.

Evaluating a non-christian religion while having bible goggles on your head is just an exercise in futility.
 
TagliatelliMonster

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Redemptionsong said:
Ok. One question at a time!

So, is this conclusion you reached with knowledge of what is meant by 'Christ', or without knowledge?
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It's not really a conclusion.

My disbelief is the result of having grown up in a judeo-christian culture, learning about the religion, hearing theists talk about their religion and then making the observation that there is zero evidence for it and thus no rational reason to believe it.

I'ld have to severely lower my standards of what constitute sufficient reason to believe something, for me to become a christian. And it would also put me in a predicament because according to that lowered standard, I would also have to believe every other religion. And things like astrology, homeopathy, sceance reading, tarrot cards, voodoo, alien abduction, bigfoot, that Elvis is still alive, etc etc etc etc etc....


So to conclude: my atheism is the result of the total lack of any kind of verifiable evidence in support of the claims of theism.

It is the result of not being convinced of the claims of theism. So I don't believe those claims.


You may make your fallacious argument now. Don't forget the strawman.
 
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