Are you a liar?

[InChrist]

A God of love? Not hardly. How could your loving God allow an estimated 11 million people (including 6 million of his own chosen people) to be murdered in cold blood by the Nazis and do nothing to stop it? How could your God of love allow countless people to be brutally murdered, sexually assaulted (rape, molestation), abused, and die of deadly diseases and viruses? Why does your God turn a blind eye to all the violence and human suffering in the world, and he does absolutely nothing to intervene and stop it?

Finally, where was your God of love when I was being abused (physically, psychologically, sexually) and often beaten to an inch of my life while I was growing up? And for the record, I believed in your God of love when I was a child, and I frantically prayed to him for years begging him to save me from the abuse and pain I was suffering. But your God of love obviously didn't care about me because I suffered all that horrific abuse for 13 1/2 years. The abuse didn't stop until I confronted my abusers face to face shortly after I turned 18. Your God of love couldn't be bothered to save me from being abused when I was growing up, and he's obviously not concerned about all the countless innocent children around the world who suffer abuse at the hands of human monsters.

Where is your (all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present) loving and merciful God, and why does he allow all the brutal violence and immeasurable human suffering in the world? And please don't blame his creation (humanity or Lucifer). Don't you think that the all-knowing, all-powerful CREATOR is personally responsible? He has infinite power and infinite knowledge, and his creation does not.

This is a fallen world; meaning it is in a sin impacted condition. It is a deteriorated, degraded and dangerous state from the original beautiful, good, and safe state God made it to be. Evil, violence and abuse are rampant because for the most part humanity is in rebellion to their Creator and His wisdom for living peacefully with one another. Sadly, no one is immune to the harmful effects in this sin damaged world, but God offers a way and hope for a new life in a new heaven and new earth free of pain, abuse, violence, sorrow, and death.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

This is a fallen world; meaning it is in a sin impacted condition. It is a deteriorated, degraded and dangerous state from the original beautiful, good, and safe state God made it to be. Evil, violence and abuse are rampant because for the most part humanity is in rebellion to their Creator and His wisdom for living peacefully with one another. Sadly, no one is immune to the harmful effects in this sin damaged world, but God offers a way and hope for a new life in a new heaven and new earth free of pain, abuse, violence, sorrow, and death.

You're barking up the wrong tree, InChrist. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I know that's what you believe, but I believe the infinite Creator (who is all-knowing, all-powerful, ever-present) is personally responsible for this screwed up world, his creation.

 

[InChrist]

To lie means to intentionally, knowingly say something false. Many people in the world honestly do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Even if they're wrong, that doesn't make them liars.

What kind of unjust deity would punish people for the thought crime of honestly believing/not believing something?

I would tend to agree that a person must first understand who Jesus Christ is or have been convicted by the Holy Spirit concerning the reality of Jesus as Savior, before one could knowingly deny Him. Of course, I think whether anyone truly understands and/or denies Christ; God alone is the Judge.

Believers can also deny Christ, as did Peter, or when one knows the truth of Christ or how He may desire them to behave in a given situation, yet He is ignored for selfish, sinful reasons. Grace and mercy is, nevertheless, available through repentance.

 

[InChrist]

You're barking up the wrong tree, InChrist. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I know that's what you believe, but I believe the infinite Creator (who is all-knowing, all-powerful, ever-present) is personally responsible for this screwed up world, his creation.

How so? If God specifically gives instructions to created beings against sinful behaviors, yet people chose to ignore God and harm others, why is it God’s fault and not the fault and responsibility of those committing the crimes and perpetuating the abuse?

 

[InChrist]

The Bible has many contradictions in it, but that's a whole other can of worms to open up.

I don’t think so...


“If we read the Bible at face value, without a preconceived bias for finding errors, we will find it to be a coherent, consistent, and relatively easy-to-understand book. Yes, there are difficult passages. Yes, there are verses that appear to contradict each other. We must remember that the Bible was written by approximately 40 different authors over a period of around 1,500 years. Each writer wrote with a different style, from a different perspective, to a different audience, for a different purpose. We should expect some minor differences. However, a difference is not a contradiction. It is only an error if there is absolutely no conceivable way the verses or passages can be reconciled. Even if an answer is not available right now, that does not mean an answer does not exist. Many have found a supposed error in the Bible in relation to history or geography only to find out that the Bible is correct once further archaeological evidence is discovered.”

Does the Bible contain errors, contradictions, or discrepancies? | GotQuestions.org

 

[InChrist]

Poor Martin Luther. He certainly opened up Pandora's Box when he sparked the Reformation, didn't he? Now there are thousands of diverse Protestant churches that have a different biblical interpretation and different beliefs about salvation, baptism, the end times, and several other theological topics related to the Bible. Most Christians endlessly bicker with other Christians and accuse other Christians of not being truly saved. Personally, I think it's erroneous for any Christian to claim that Christianity is the only true religion and all other religions are false when Christians can't even agree with each other about what the Bible actually teaches.

Sure Christians bicker, have different views and can’t always agree. The Body of Christ/church is very diverse and God allows differences and variety as He matures each person in their process of becoming more Christ-like.
In the long run and I think certainly on the day of judgment none of that will matter or be a valid excuse. Jesus is all that matters and one’s response to Him.

 

[firedragon]

The evangelist John

Where in John does it say "the evangelist John" wrote this? Who is this evangelist John 70 years after Jesus parted?

 

[osgart]

The evangelist John asks a very challenging question in his first epistle (1 John 2:22). He asks, 'Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

He goes on to say, 'He is an anti-christ, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father:'

Strong words from a man who preached a God of love!

But, how does one arrive at the position that a man is a liar if he denies that Jesus is Christ? I guess the opening premise is that God is Truth [Deut. 32:4 etc]. From here one can reasonably deduce that God's Word is true, and that Christ, coming from God, is the Word of God [Rev. 19:13]. If this be the case, then a denial of Christ is a denial of truth [John 14:6]. To deny truth is to make truth a lie. Is this, therefore, the unforgivable sin?

Christ deniers really have no rock to stand on when 'truth' becomes a victim, as happens in war. Where is the hope of justice if there is no God to hear your cry? If your daughter is raped and murdered by soldiers, or your son tortured, tied and shot in the back of the head, how do you respond? Hate and seek revenge? Add your vitriol to the great hell of war? Seek justice from courts that may never provide justice? Give up on life itself, with no hope of glory?

I'm with Paul, who said, 'For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.' [Phil.1:21]

To lie is to tell falsehoods to deceive with the sole purpose of causing harm and damage. Are you saying all non believers are liars? I know my own intentions as a non believer. I can tell you I have no such intentions.

So do you make your judgment on the sole basis of these passages? It sounds like a claim that Jesus is the obvious truth and all nonbelievers are choosing to be willfully blind out of resentment toward your God.

That is very interesting. I would consider this fundamentalist Christianity and a very literal reading of the Bible through the words of the NT.

I believe the authors of the NT would approve of your interpretation of it. I also think it's not reality based.

As for justice for the non believer I would rather know reality for what it is then live for a promise that will never come to pass.

What test do you have that Christianity is true?

 

[F1fan]

Are you?

Yes I am exempt from this dilemma that you, and/or other Christians have created. I say so.

That all depends on whether God is truth, and whether Christ is 'God with us'!

You haven't shown this to be the case, or have any authority over those who don't believe. There is no God coming forth making these proclamations, only ordinary, mortals like yourself. Since you are flawed and could be mistaken I don't recognize you as an absolute authority.

Do you think that a denial of truth exempts you from judgment?

You haven't presented truth, you've presented your belief as a fallible mortal. You could be mistaken. Or are you claiming to be a God?

 

[F1fan]

This is a fallen world; meaning it is in a sin impacted condition. It is a deteriorated, degraded and dangerous state from the original beautiful, good, and safe state God made it to be. Evil, violence and abuse are rampant because for the most part humanity is in rebellion to their Creator and His wisdom for living peacefully with one another. Sadly, no one is immune to the harmful effects in this sin damaged world, but God offers a way and hope for a new life in a new heaven and new earth free of pain, abuse, violence, sorrow, and death.

If God wanted a different outcome it should have designed the universe in the way it wanted. But that suggests God makes mistakes. So if God is perfect then God made this world exactly how it wanted.

 

[InChrist]

If God wanted a different outcome it should have designed the universe in the way it wanted. But that suggests God makes mistakes. So if God is perfect then God made this world exactly how it wanted.

The scriptures clearly say God’s creation was originally good. Ultimately, God wants a perfect, sin-free world. God also wants beings created in His image with volition and the freedom to CHOOSE to do what is right. Maybe if everyone would have chosen only right to begin with the world would have remained unscathed by sin, but that’s not what happened. As humans we seem to have to learn things the hard way. So this world is what it is, and as such, it is a time to choose and a time of testing to see the kind of world each person ultimately desires to live in. You are partially correct, for now God wants the world the way it is as He let’s humanity see the consequences of our actions. Yet, this is a temporary time and testing ground in preparation for the new heaven and earth.

 

[InChrist]

Yes I am exempt from this dilemma that you, and/or other Christians have created. I say so.

You may think you’re exempt and I’m not going to tell you what to think. But if it is true that there is a Creator God to whom we are all accountable and derive our very breath from and Jesus is the only appointed Savior, then no one is exempt.
Again, I can’t tell you what to think or believe, yet if the above is true, then it’s only logical that no one is exempt.

 

[F1fan]

The scriptures clearly say God’s creation was originally good. Ultimately, God wants a perfect, sin-free world.

Then God should have designed the world, and the people, so the world would remain sin-free. That God didn't it suggests 1. God makes mistakes, or 2. that God deliberately designed the world to fall.

God also wants beings created in His image with volition and the freedom to CHOOSE to do what is right. Maybe if everyone would have chosen only right to begin with the world would have remained unscathed by sin, but that’s not what happened.

God should have made them like mature and wise Buddhist monks, not children without wisdom or discipline. It was destined to fail because A&E were like children. They didn't know any better.

As humans we seem to have to learn things the hard way.

Just as we were created, yes?

 

[F1fan]

You may think you’re exempt and I’m not going to tell you what to think.

I am completely exempt from the consequences of other people's religious dogma. So are you. Are you obligated to what muslims or Hindus claim in their religious doctrines?

But if it is true that there is a Creator God to whom we are all accountable and derive our very breath from and Jesus is the only appointed Savior, then no one is exempt.

Well there you go, you just admitted that God and Jesus has to be known as a fact. Neither are known to exist, and even you acknowledge this here.

With no facts, you Christians have no authority over non-believers.

Again, I can’t tell you what to think or believe, yet if the above is true, then it’s only logical that no one is exempt.

There is no logical conclusion because you have no factual premise that God or Jesus exist. It's all just assumptions. It's religious dogma. And that isn't good enough for logic/reason. I will ONLY believe in ideas that have evidence and are reasonable. Christian concepts have no evidence and are not reasonable.

 

[InChrist]

Then God should have designed the world, and the people, so the world would remain sin-free. That God didn't it suggests 1. God makes mistakes, or 2. that God deliberately designed the world to fall.


God should have made them like mature and wise Buddhist monks, not children without wisdom or discipline. It was destined to fail because A&E were like children. They didn't know any better.


Just as we were created, yes?

It suggests pretty loudly to me that humans don’t listen and make mistakes. A&E certainly understood and knew enough to realize God was good, trustworthy, and loving with their best interest at heart. It also suggests that God had no desire to create robotic pre-program beings. Freedom appears to be very important to the Creator.
I as a finite being, personally don’t presume to have more wisdom than an infinite Creator concerning how to go about creation.

 

[F1fan]

It suggests pretty loudly to me that humans don’t listen and make mistakes.

Exactly. Thank you for admitting this. They are just as created by God. If God didn't want humans who make such stupid mistakes then it should have created wiser humans who seldom make mistakes.

A&E certainly understood and knew enough to realize God was good, trustworthy, and loving with their best interest at heart.

False. If this was true they wouldn't have been tempted.

Remember, they didn't act ONLY only on their poor judgment, they were directly tempted by the serpent that God sent. It was a total set up. Unwise and easily tempted humans, and the serpent that would push them over the edge. All God's doing.

It also suggests that God had no desire to create robotic pre-program beings. Freedom appears to be very important to the Creator.

No one brings up robots except Christians. All I'm suggesting is street smart and wise humans be created who won't get duped to disobey God by the serpent. God made A&E naive and easily duped as the story reveals. God knew what it was doing. Do you think God was an idiot and couldn't foresee that A&E would be duped? God sent the serpent for a reason. It was a set up.

I as a finite being, personally don’t presume to have more wisdom than an infinite Creator concerning how to go about creation.

So perhaps you are mistaken in your view of all this. After all, you have a reason not to **** off this God in case it actually exists. I have the freedom to suggest God is corrupt or incompetent. You need to walk on eggshells.

 

[InChrist]

I am completely exempt from the consequences of other people's religious dogma. So are you. Are you obligated to what muslims or Hindus claim in their religious doctrines?


Well there you go, you just admitted that God and Jesus has to be known as a fact. Neither are known to exist, and even you acknowledge this here.

With no facts, you Christians have no authority over non-believers.


There is no logical conclusion because you have no factual premise that God or Jesus exist. It's all just assumptions. It's religious dogma. And that isn't good enough for logic/reason. I will ONLY believe in ideas that have evidence and are reasonable. Christian concepts have no evidence and are not reasonable.

I never said Christians have authority over you or anyone. Why would you say or think something like that? I don’t consider the doctrines of Hinduism or Islam to line if with spiritual reality, but if either did happen to be actually true, then yes I would be obliged at some point.
Again, you may believe the biblical account about a Creator God and Jesus Christ the Savior are simply assumptions. I can’t make you think otherwise and it’s not my place. But certainly God is capable of revealing whether His existence is real if you sincerely ask Him directly.

 

[F1fan]

I never said Christians have authority over you or anyone.

Yes, you have been good to not cross the line. Too bad you weren't in the Garden, perhaps you wouldn't have disobeyed God. What do you think?

Why would you say or think something like that?

The OP definitely assumes an authority he doesn't have.

I don’t consider the doctrines of Hinduism or Islam to line if with spiritual reality, but if either did happen to be actually true, then yes I would be obliged at some point.

That is actually a very mature, spiritual approach.

Again, you may believe the biblical account about a Creator God and Jesus Christ the Savior are simply assumptions.

I don't believe they are, it's a fact that Christians assume God and Jesus exist. There is no evidence to suggest otherwise. I understand that believers treat their assumptions/beliefs as if true. This is part of religious behavior and activity.

I can’t make you think otherwise and it’s not my place.

I disagree. In debate it IS the intent and purpose to convince others that your position is valid and true as claimed. Theists have a dilemma in that their beliefs are no very well evidenced.

But certainly God is capable of revealing whether His existence is real if you sincerely ask Him directly.

That God hasn't done this to any of millions of atheists is a bad sign. And even most theists admit their beliefs are uncertain and faith-based. So God seems to ignore believers as well as atheists.

 

[InChrist]

Exactly. Thank you for admitting this. They are just as created by God. If God didn't want humans who make such stupid mistakes then it should have created wiser humans who seldom make mistakes.


False. If this was true they wouldn't have been tempted.

Remember, they didn't act ONLY only on their poor judgment, they were directly tempted by the serpent that God sent. It was a total set up. Unwise and easily tempted humans, and the serpent that would push them over the edge. All God's doing.


No one brings up robots except Christians. All I'm suggesting is street smart and wise humans be created who won't get duped to disobey God by the serpent. God made A&E naive and easily duped as the story reveals. God knew what it was doing. Do you think God was an idiot and couldn't foresee that A&E would be duped? God sent the serpent for a reason. It was a set up.


So perhaps you are mistaken in your view of all this. After all, you have a reason not to **** off this God in case it actually exists. I have the freedom to suggest God is corrupt or incompetent. You need to walk on eggshells.

I don’t walk on eggshells. I have no reason to fear, as I am free forever in the love of Christ.
No where does the scripture say God created the Serpent which tempted A&E. The scriptures reveal that God created a beautiful angelic being; Lucifer who chose to rebel becoming a fallen angel/Devil intent on being God’s enemy and an enemy of creation. The serpent was merely one of God’s animal creatures, which the devil then possessed to deceive A&E. It was not a set-up. God did not send the devil/serpent.
Certainly God being all-knowing knew what would happen, therefore He had valid reasons for allowing it to happen. A&E certainly were not naive or stupid, though, as the scriptures indicate they walked with God each, they knew His love, care and provision in the beautiful garden environment. Yet, they chose to listen to and follow the lies of the serpent rather than trust and obey one simple instruction from God.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Remember, they didn't act ONLY only on their poor judgment, they were directly tempted by the serpent that God sent. It was a total set up. Unwise and easily tempted humans, and the serpent that would push them over the edge. All God's doing.

Of course, God set up Adam and Eve. There are several verses in the Bible that assert God is all-powerful, all-knowing and ever-present, which means he knew A&E would be tempted by the apple on the tree of life, and they would disobey his command by eating the apple. Despite having this foreknowledge, he creates A&E anyway, but instead of correcting his mistake then and there, he cruelly decides to curse and punish the rest of humanity for A&E's disobedience against him. He also formulates an extremely vile plan to sacrifice his own son in order to correct his colossal mistake of creating morally flawed human beings. God also created Lucifer, knowing beforehand that Lucifer and the other angels would rebel against him. God set Lucifer and man up to fall before he created anything. In other words, Lucifer and humanity are nothing more than God's playthings to control and manipulate.