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Are you Certain There is no God?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
There are also many people today claiming to be messengers from God and they have their followings. You accept your messengers others accept different messengers. Each certain they have selected/followed the right messenger.
Obviously to me, there has to be criteria by what we accept them as Messengers from God. If they do not meet these criteria, there would be no reason to believe in them. Certainly, a claim us not part of the criteria because anyone can claim yo be a Messenger, and many do.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
It's utterly simple. The hand is a tool devised by nature. Simple purpose.
That's not the nonsense part (though as you formulated it, it isn't correct) but the non sequitur from "look at the trees" to "god exists".
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Obviously to me, there has to be criteria by what we accept them as Messengers from God. If they do not meet these criteria, there would be no reason to believe in them. Certainly, a claim us not part of the criteria because anyone can claim yo be a Messenger, and many do.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Unfortunately, I have found people can be convinced to see thorns as grapes.
 

Love God

Member
They need not be brief, but they should not have huge non sequiturs.

And yes, Revelation is an easy book to understand once one sees it as delusional ramblings.

The fact that Genesis is still part of the Jewish scriptures is another non sequitur that only rates a So what? We still know it is myth.

And no prophecies bother me, though I do find some of them to be humorous.


I wish you nothing but peace and

Joy
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Isn't Baha'u'llah just evidence that Jesus is the a prophet of God, since Baha'u'llah and people like him, including Mohammad, were prophesied by Jesus.
For me Baha'u'llah is evidence that Jesus was a Prophet of God because Baha'u'llah validated the existence of Jesus and His prophethood, but Jesus is also evidence that Baha'u'llah was a Prophet of God, because Jesus predicted and announced the coming of Baha'u'llah.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I wish you nothing but peace and

Joy
And a trolling response is not very "Christian". I take it that you do not wish to know we how that the various stories of Genesis to be mythical. Since it does affect your faith understanding this would seem to be rather important to you.
 

Love God

Member
I'm not claiming to know anything about God, certainly not why God goes about doing what God does.



Through many different forms.For example I saw a burning bush, like described in the Bible. Not dreaming or a vision but in broad daylight. I had already gotten used to these things so I wasn't alarmed. I was just like hmm... Look at that, that's pretty neat.

From a person claiming to be an incarnation of God, they taught me to see an inner light. It's not like I imagine it, it is just there when I look. Even now. A pure bright white light. Seemed to fit with what I was told about God so didn't really think to question it. I had conversations with the Holy Spirit who would teach me stuff about how the universe started. Why God is hidden from us. Stuff I couldn't possibly know but all seemed to make sense once it was revealed.

I've come across several who have also had these kinds of experiences and many more who haven't.

Are you familiar with the bible?

Is the bible part of your consideration?
In your journey, have you run across people that are willing to lie to you? Create confusion? Tell you something just because they can?

Do you have any idea how to tell if someone may be lying to you?
Do you have some standard by which to measure the truth from the lies? What is your standard for measuring?

Joy


“How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
For my people is foolish, they have not known me;
they are sottish children, and they have none understanding:
they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭4:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Are you familiar with the bible?

Is the bible part of your consideration?
In your journey, have you run across people that are willing to lie to you? Create confusion? Tell you something just because they can?

Do you have any idea how to tell if someone may be lying to you?
Do you have some standard by which to measure the truth from the lies? What is your standard for measuring?

Joy


“How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
For my people is foolish, they have not known me;
they are sottish children, and they have none understanding:
they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭4:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Do you realize that the Bible is the claim and is not evidence. Quoting from it does not help you in this matter.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Unfortunately, I have found people can be convinced to see thorns as grapes.
That is for certain, but I think that if they looked more closely they would see the thorns...
On the other hand, there are some people who never see the thorns even when they are staring them in the face... take Trumpsters for example.

The upshot is that some people will believe anything, even when there is no evidence or which the evidence clearly refutes, and for the life of me I cannot understand why, but I think it says something about them. These people are gullible..

However, that does not mean that nothing is worth believing, one just has to be cautious and do a careful investigation before they are willing to believe.
 

Love God

Member
And a trolling response is not very "Christian". I take it that you do not wish to know we how that the various stories of Genesis to be mythical. Since it does affect your faith understanding this would seem to be rather important to you.
And a trolling response is not very "Christian". I take it that you do not wish to know we how that the various stories of Genesis to be mythical. Since it does affect your faith understanding this would seem to be rather important to you.

It is you ‘assuming’ that I have no understanding.

That I do not understand ‘science’ or ‘fables’ or ‘fairytales’.
You are on the high moral ground of being ‘smarter’ than I.

I do not understand ‘trolling’.


‘What does trolling someone mean?
Trolling is defined as creating discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people by posting inflammatory or off-topic messages in an online community. Basically, a social media troll is someone who purposely says something controversial in order to get a rise out of other users.‘

Again. I was under the understanding that this was a forum for dialogue.

I fish. I bait my hooks and fish. I love knowing what other’s believe and understand. Always have.

My understanding of atheists is solid from my years of ‘fishing’. I know how little atheists think of bible believers.

It has been established from your missives thus far.

I have asked for sources and you have given me ridicule for answers.

So please forgive me for not responding to you again. Because I really do wish you nothing but peace and joy.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is you ‘assuming’ that I have no understanding.

That I do not understand ‘science’ or ‘fables’ or ‘fairytales’.
You are on the high moral ground of being ‘smarter’ than I.

I do not understand ‘trolling’.


‘What does trolling someone mean?
Trolling is defined as creating discord on the Internet by starting quarrels or upsetting people by posting inflammatory or off-topic messages in an online community. Basically, a social media troll is someone who purposely says something controversial in order to get a rise out of other users.‘

Again. I was under the understanding that this was a forum for dialogue.

I fish. I bait my hooks and fish. I love knowing what other’s believe and understand. Always have.

My understanding of atheists is solid from my years of ‘fishing’. I know how little atheists think of bible believers.

It has been established from your missives thus far.

I have asked for sources and you have given me ridicule for answers.

So please forgive me for not responding to you again. Because I really do wish you nothing but peace and joy.
Oh my, air quotes on the word science. Not a good sign. The very science that you deny is what makes your life possible. And the reason that so called Bible believers are treated with little respect is due to what appears to be endless hypocrisy. Using the science that they deny, calling their own God a liar even though they do not know it, trying to push their nonsense into public schools, the list goes on and on.

Why not try to learn from one's errors? Accepting reality does not have to turn one into an atheist.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
We know, but most Christians do not know. They believe it is actual history, that there was an Adam and Eve and a Garden of Eden and a tree with fruit, for example.
Too bad they won't let themselves learn. They try to claim that we are pretending to be smarter than they are. No one is making that claim. What they seem to realize is that believing the myths of the Bible makes them look unintelligent even if they are very intelligent.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I'm noticing lots of assumptions here. Let's tally them and ask some follow-up questions:
  • Why do you believe that deifying natural phenomena means that these phenomena "want" things (spoiler -this is not necessarily the case)? Who taught you that? Why did you believe them?
  • Why do you believe that deifying natural phenomena means that there is "reason" or "intention" behind things (spoiler - this is not necessarily the case)? Who taught you that? Why did you believe them?
  • Why do you believe that deifying natural phenomena means that natural disasters and the like means something is "angry" or "punishing" humans (spoiler - this is not necessarily the case)? Who taught you that? Why did you believe them?
Again, you're still taking things way too literally and also with the expected influence/baggage of monotheist/Abrahamic theology.
Frankly, I have no idea what you are on about. How about you showing me examples of deified natural phenomena that are not associated with intention, desire or emotional state.

See, the only deities I know about are the ones I've been taught about. You know, the Abrahamic God, Ra, Isis, the Great Spirit, Zeus, Hera, Ahura Mazda, and a variety of others. But they ALL come with a complete array of very human intentions, desires and emotions. Even Santa and the Tooth Fairy come so supplied.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
The Bab appeared in 1844 to announce the coming of Baha'u'llah and to usher in the new age, the Age of Fulfillment. That marked the beginning of an entirely new religious cycle, called of Baha'i Cycle. Then nine years later Baha'u'llalh appeared and fulfilled the prophecies for the Second Coming of Christ and the Messiah.

The prophecies that have not yet been completely fulfilled are the prophecies for the Messianic Age. The remainder of the prophecies will be fulfilled during is age. We are only at the very beginning of the Messianic Age which will last thousands of years.

How did Bab fulfill the prophecies if there is no world peace? I don't think the messianic age began in 1844 and that's why I don't think the Bab appeared then. I don't think there are different degrees to the Messianic Age.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I've heard that stated several times but also refuted (sometimes by the same people) so I'm not sure what I shall think of the Baha'i claim of accepting science.
The UU also claim to accept science but it is more a "we tolerate science" than an acceptance.
The Baha'i Faith has a lot to say about science, but the following excerpts from the talks delivered by Abdu'l-Baha when he was in Washington, D.C. in 1912 are representative of the Baha'i Faith position on science.

"The virtues of humanity are many, but science is the most noble of them all. The distinction which man enjoys above and beyond the station of the animal is due to this paramount virtue. It is a bestowal of God; it is not material; it is divine. Science is an effulgence of the Sun of Reality, the power of investigating and discovering the verities of the universe, the means by which man finds a pathway to God. All the powers and attributes of man are human and hereditary in origin—outcomes of nature’s processes—except the intellect, which is supernatural. Through intellectual and intelligent inquiry science is the discoverer of all things. It unites present and past, reveals the history of bygone nations and events, and confers upon man today the essence of all human knowledge and attainment throughout the ages. By intellectual processes and logical deductions of reason this superpower in man can penetrate the mysteries of the future and anticipate its happenings.

Science is the first emanation from God toward man. All created beings embody the potentiality of material perfection, but the power of intellectual investigation and scientific acquisition is a higher virtue specialized to man alone. Other beings and organisms are deprived of this potentiality and attainment. God has created or deposited this love of reality in man. The development and progress of a nation is according to the measure and degree of that nation’s scientific attainments. Through this means its greatness is continually increased, and day by day the welfare and prosperity of its people are assured.

All blessings are divine in origin, but none can be compared with this power of intellectual investigation and research, which is an eternal gift producing fruits of unending delight. Man is ever partaking of these fruits. All other blessings are temporary; this is an everlasting possession. Even sovereignty has its limitations and overthrow; this is a kingship and dominion which none may usurp or destroy. Briefly, it is an eternal blessing and divine bestowal, the supreme gift of God to man. Therefore, you should put forward your most earnest efforts toward the acquisition of science and arts. The greater your attainment, the higher your standard in the divine purpose. The man of science is perceiving and endowed with vision, whereas he who is ignorant and neglectful of this development is blind. The investigating mind is attentive, alive; the callous and indifferent mind is deaf and dead. A scientific man is a true index and representative of humanity, for through processes of inductive reasoning and research he is informed of all that appertains to humanity, its status, conditions and happenings. He studies the human body politic, understands social problems and weaves the web and texture of civilization. In fact, science may be likened to a mirror wherein the infinite forms and images of existing things are revealed and reflected. It is the very foundation of all individual and national development. Without this basis of investigation, development is impossible. Therefore, seek with diligent endeavor the knowledge and attainment of all that lies within the power of this wonderful bestowal."

The Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 49-50

"Furthermore, religion must conform to reason and be in accord with the conclusions of science. For religion, reason and science are realities; therefore, these three, being realities, must conform and be reconciled. A question or principle which is religious in its nature must be sanctioned by science. Science must declare it to be valid, and reason must confirm it in order that it may inspire confidence. If religious teaching, however, be at variance with science and reason, it is unquestionably superstition. The Lord of mankind has bestowed upon us the faculty of reason whereby we may discern the realities of things. How then can man rightfully accept any proposition which is not in conformity with the processes of reason and the principles of science? Assuredly such a course cannot inspire man with confidence and real belief."

The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 394
 

Love God

Member
Another question is: Which of those prophecies do you believer were fulfilled by Jesus? Can you demonstrate how, when, and where they were fulfilled?


This would be a wall indeed.


The questions seem rather insincere.

Absolute truth.

Does it exist and can anyone know it?

Joy

PS. I answer my own questions in the affirmative...
And yes to your question: ‘Can I demonstrate...’ see my first sentence...
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
How did Bab fulfill the prophecies if there is no world peace? I don't think the messianic age began in 1844 and that's why I don't think the Bab appeared then. I don't think there are different degrees to the Messianic Age.
By definition, an age is distinct period of history, so an age spans a period in history. The Messianic Age began in 1844 but it will last thousands of years. During those years, all the prophecies will be fulfilled.

There are two classifications of Bible prophecies:

1. Prophecies that were fulfilled by the COMING of Baha'u'llah (what happened before He appeared, what happened while He was alive on earth, and what happened during the first years after he died.)

All these prophecies were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah or as the result of His coming.

2. Prophecies that will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age, which includes the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah but could extend beyond that. The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah will last no less than 1000 years (1852-2852 AD), but it could last longer. It will last until another Messenger of God appears, and that could happen any time after 2852 AD but not any sooner.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
By definition, an age is distinct period of history, so an age spans a period in history. The Messianic Age began in 1844 but it will last thousands of years. During those years, all the prophecies will be fulfilled.

There are two classifications of Bible prophecies:

1. Prophecies that were fulfilled by the COMING of Baha'u'llah (what happened before He appeared, what happened while He was alive on earth, and what happened during the first years after he died.)

All these prophecies were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah or as the result of His coming.

2. Prophecies that will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age, which includes the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah but could extend beyond that. The Dispensation of Baha'u'llah will last no less than 1000 years (1852-2852 AD), but it could last longer. It will last until another Messenger of God appears, and that could happen any time after 2852 AD but not any sooner.

How could the Messianic Age have began in 1844 if the Messiah is not ruling now?
 
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