Are you Certain There is no God?

[chinu]

I am certain there is no good reason for me to believe in God.

Why?
I see no reason to believe anything in the Bible.
I see no reason to believe that God communicates to us either individually or through messengers.

One can of course choose to believe otherwise but there is no argument or evidence which compels one to make either choice. Right?

The choice to believe in these things, like the Bible is purely arbitrary.
Why I don't believe is the same reason I don't believe Harry Potter is anything more than a fictional character, I've no reason to.

Do you feel compelled to believe in God?
Do you feel belief is necessary?

I don't see it but perhaps you can explain it.

When for the first time right after your birth -- you cried for food, or water, or milk. Why you cried ? That time --what made you believed that food, or water, or milk exists ?

 

[osgart]

That's the problem with mysteries: they tend to be patched with made up beings, whose existence, for some reasons, is not deemed mysterious. My ancestors did the same by invoking Thor as an explanation for the mystery of lighninings. Which was obviously a tad premature. Like it is usually the case for supernatural explanations of mysteries.

Fact is how: how many times has a supernatural explanation been replaced with a natural one? How many times the inverse happened?

I would say that a simple Bayesian computation, deriving from an answer to those questions, is more than enough to compel the idea that naturalism is true, instead. And the supernatural does not exist.

In fact, I think that replacing in every statement "I have a supernatural explanation" with "I have no clue", would attain the same explanatory power to address what we, in fact, do not know, yet. That is more or less what physicists do when they talk of "singularities", which is the same of "we have no idea yet of what physics acts at those regimes".

Ciao

- viole

There's no way that you can predict the formation of a hand naturally from prior conditions.

I didn't refer to the supernatural. God is natural.

 

[Heyo]

You don't understand it at all then.

Yep. And nobody was able to explain it to me - because it makes no sense.

 

[viole]

There's no way that you can predict the formation of a hand naturally from prior conditions.

Of course you can. You could even change the course of the formation by changing a couple of bits in the genome.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Love God]

I am certain there is no good reason for me to believe in God.

Why?
I see no reason to believe anything in the Bible.
I see no reason to believe that God communicates to us either individually or through messengers.

One can of course choose to believe otherwise but there is no argument or evidence which compels one to make either choice. Right?

The choice to believe in these things, like the Bible is purely arbitrary.
Why I don't believe is the same reason I don't believe Harry Potter is anything more than a fictional character, I've no reason to.

Do you feel compelled to believe in God?
Do you feel belief is necessary?

I don't see it but perhaps you can explain it.

If you have never heard of nor have understanding of a particular thing, say brain surgery, does it make brain surgery not true?

if I told you brain surgery existed, would you be offended?

The birth, life, death of one man, the man Christ Jesus, was prophesied 400-2000 years before he was born on 48 points. All 48 points came to pass.

The odds of that happening are something like this:

You go out and cover the entire surface of the moon 4” deep in numbered coins.

You tell me to go find the coin numbered 7,974,100.

I pick it up first try.

The chances of me picking up the coin on first try is as close to nil as nil is.

(You cannot get the birth, life, death of one person on 10 points in one lifetime.)
How do you explain it?
Chance? Luck? Conspiracy?
A bunch of scholars got together...

The problem with most people is they hate absolute truth. i.e. God.
People like what they feel like to be the truth.
People do not like their evil deeds to be ‘judged’. Especially as evil!!
Because if a person likes their evil deed(s), it must not be evil...you must be judgmental.

The beauty of God is that he is absolute truth. The standard that everyone tries to do away with.
To no avail.
All the protesting, denying, crying, boasting, et al., that the bible lies and God doesn’t exist, are nothing but smoke screens.

Your feelings nor your lack of understanding do not do away with truth. The truth is the truth no matter how anyone feels about it.

If you have determined in your own mind that absolute truth does not exist, is that absolutely true? ...

“Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:24‬ ‭KJV

Joy

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I mean, I've already done that multiple times on the forums. And every time I get told "but that isn't what gods are" or some other variety of "that doesn't count because reasons." I get tired of bothering. It doesn't matter how many times I explain that polytheistic gods are personifications of various natural and social forces that are literally studied by the sciences and the arts alike. Doesn't matter how many times I try to convey that Sun is the most deified aspect of nature throughout human history. Doesn't matter how often I point out the complexities of ontology or foundational assumptions related to thereof. Folks have their vested worldview - monotheist and "atheist" alike - and will ignore anything I present every time (with very rare exceptions).

Now, I don't have a problem with folks having a vested worldview. But I have more respect for monotheists and atheists who acknowledge that other people's gods are... well... their gods. You can keep to your worldview while acknowledging the validity of someone else's. Because ultimately, deification is an attribution, not some innate quality something has.

Humans "personify" lots of things -- for their own use. It does not, however, make the thing personified into a person. When Jock says about his car, "Ain't she beauty!?" the car neither turns female, nor does it magically acquire any other characteristic of a person.

In the same way, even the best metaphor remains a metaphor. When Albert Einstein said, "all religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree," not a single religion, art or science actually turned into a literal tree branch.

It is the same for personifications of nature -- they don't become persons.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Thank you for pointing that out! I have gone back and fixed it.
Are you Certain There is no God?

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you have never heard of nor have understanding of a particular thing, say brain surgery, does it make brain surgery not true?

if I told you brain surgery existed, would you be offended?

The birth, life, death of one man, the man Christ Jesus, was prophesied 400-2000 years before he was born on 48 points. All 48 points came to pass.

The odds of that happening are something like this:

You go out and cover the entire surface of the moon 4” deep in numbered coins.

You tell me to go find the coin numbered 7,974,100.

I pick it up first try.

The chances of me picking up the coin on first try is as close to nil as nil is.

(You cannot get the birth, life, death of one person on 10 points in one lifetime.)
How do you explain it?
Chance? Luck? Conspiracy?
A bunch of scholars got together...

The problem with most people is they hate absolute truth. i.e. God.
People like what they feel like to be the truth.
People do not like their evil deeds to be ‘judged’. Especially as evil!!
Because if a person likes their evil deed(s), it must not be evil...you must be judgmental.

The beauty of God is that he is absolute truth. The standard that everyone tries to do away with.
To no avail.
All the protesting, denying, crying, boasting, et al., that the bible lies and God doesn’t exist, are nothing but smoke screens.

Your feelings nor your lack of understanding do not do away with truth. The truth is the truth no matter how anyone feels about it.

If you have determined in your own mind that absolute truth does not exist, is that absolutely true? ...

“Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:24‬ ‭KJV

Joy

The claim of many prophecies of the birth of Jesus fail when investigated. Most so called prophecies are not even prophecies when read in context. The claim sounds impressive until one checks it out.

 

[Hellbound Serpiente]

Of course you can. You could even change the course of the formation by changing a couple of bits in the genome.

Ciao

- viole

Which requires "Him". And he, unlike the natural prior conditions which perceptually led to this formation, is a sentient, conscious, intelligent entity.

 

[viole]

Which requires "Him". And he, unlike the natural prior conditions which perceptually led to this formation, is a sentient, conscious, intelligent entity.

The claim was that we cannot predict the development of the hand given prior conditions. I reply that you can. At least in principle, and with a good knowledge of genetics.

Otherwise, it is a triviality that nobody can predict the development of the hand when there are no conscious predictors.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Love God]

Of course you can. You could even change the course of the formation by changing a couple of bits in the genome.

Ciao

- viole[/

The claim of many prophecies of the birth of Jesus fail when investigated. Most so called prophecies are not even prophecies when read in context. The claim sounds impressive until one checks it out.

Thanks for the reply.

Would you be willing to give the proof or evidences of your truth claims?

The sources that you have studied and found to be truthful?

I am always open to hearing a matter out. Otherwise, absolute truth would be a lie...

Joy


“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭23:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The very concept of gods is a man-made construct. Man created god(s) in an attempt to explain (then) unexplainable mysteries.

Saying an angry god caused the mountain to explode and kill some of the tribe's members was more satisfying than saying "I donno" why the mountain exploded.

Humans cannot do anything about "I donno". Humans could and did find ways to alleviate angry gods through prayer and sacrifice. They could take some positive actions to prevent further destruction.

Egotistical man-leaders told egotistical followers that the god created man in the image of the god. In reality, men created gods that looked like them.

Reasons not to believe...the list is far too long for this thread.

Well, the world/the universe/everything/reality are man-made construct.

 

[Quintessence]

Humans "personify" lots of things -- for their own use. It does not, however, make the thing personified into a person. When Jock says about his car, "Ain't she beauty!?" the car neither turns female, nor does it magically acquire any other characteristic of a person.

In the same way, even the best metaphor remains a metaphor. When Albert Einstein said, "all religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree," not a single religion, art or science actually turned into a literal tree branch.

It is the same for personifications of nature -- they don't become persons.

"Person" is also an attribution, just like "deity", with varying interpretations (heard of animism?) - even if this weren't the case, gods don't have to be persons regardless of how you are defining that attribution.

What I'm trying to communicate there is that the tales about the old gods are full of literary devices. This is something covered in public education, yet theists and atheists alike seem to just forget all of that and take everything literally like you seem to here. Whether or not the gods are also attributed to be persons, the gods are presented in an anthropomorphic fashion as a literary device. It's of the same vein as talking animals in children's literature. It isn't that animals literally talk in human languages, and it isn't that gods are literally human-looking entities with supernatural powers. It's a way of telling the story.

Traditional religion - polytheistic peoples and animistic peoples - deify natural/social forces. If you "believe in" reality and everything in it, you "believe in" the gods and the sciences that study these gods (which is all of them). What you can choose not to "believe in" is that reality and everything in it is worthy of worship; you can choose not to personally deify these things. That's not only fine, but expected - don't create false gods for yourself. But I'm darned tired of hearing "herp derp, no evidence of any gods! If we understand what the gods are to various human peoples, this statement doesn't have a leg to stand on. Statements like that have to be "I" statements: there's no evidence for what *I* would consider to be gods.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thanks for the reply.

Would you be willing to give the proof or evidences of your truth claims?

The sources that you have studied and found to be truthful?

I am always open to hearing a matter out. Otherwise, absolute truth would be a lie...

Joy


“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭23:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Perhaps the most famous example is the so called prophecy of a virgin birth. That involved a verse that did not even claim that it would be a virgin and was not about Jesus. Isaiah 7 14 was not about a virgin, but a young woman. In context it was about an event that was happening then and not in the future. The error arose from the fact that the Greek Septuagint had a mistranslation of "almah".

 

[firedragon]

I am certain there is no good reason for me to believe in God.

Why?
I see no reason to believe anything in the Bible.
I see no reason to believe that God communicates to us either individually or through messengers.

One can of course choose to believe otherwise but there is no argument or evidence which compels one to make either choice. Right?

The choice to believe in these things, like the Bible is purely arbitrary.
Why I don't believe is the same reason I don't believe Harry Potter is anything more than a fictional character, I've no reason to.

Do you feel compelled to believe in God?
Do you feel belief is necessary?

I don't see it but perhaps you can explain it.

So you dont sea no good reason because you see no reason. Not that you have an argument against. Alright, I can respect that.

But why just the Bible in that case because that's a book, which would mean you see no reason because you dont see reason in a book.

Thus, is your question based on reason or a book?

 

[Nakosis]

If you have never heard of nor have understanding of a particular thing, say brain surgery, does it make brain surgery not true?

if I told you brain surgery existed, would you be offended?

I'm not offended if someone tells me God exists either. The majority of my life, I believe in a God. Why should I be offended by something I myself was "guilty" of?

The birth, life, death of one man, the man Christ Jesus, was prophesied 400-2000 years before he was born on 48 points. All 48 points came to pass.

The odds of that happening are something like this:

You go out and cover the entire surface of the moon 4” deep in numbered coins.

You tell me to go find the coin numbered 7,974,100.

I pick it up first try.

The chances of me picking up the coin on first try is as close to nil as nil is.

(You cannot get the birth, life, death of one person on 10 points in one lifetime.)
How do you explain it?
Chance? Luck? Conspiracy?
A bunch of scholars got together...

The problem with most people is they hate absolute truth. i.e. God.
People like what they feel like to be the truth.
People do not like their evil deeds to be ‘judged’. Especially as evil!!
Because if a person likes their evil deed(s), it must not be evil...you must be judgmental.

The beauty of God is that he is absolute truth. The standard that everyone tries to do away with.
To no avail.
All the protesting, denying, crying, boasting, et al., that the bible lies and God doesn’t exist, are nothing but smoke screens.

Your feelings nor your lack of understanding do not do away with truth. The truth is the truth no matter how anyone feels about it.

If you have determined in your own mind that absolute truth does not exist, is that absolutely true? ...

“Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:24‬ ‭KJV

Joy

I don't hate the absolute truth. I've just come to accept if an absolute truth exist, I never know what it is.

 

[Nakosis]

When for the first time right after your birth -- you cried for food, or water, or milk. Why you cried ? That time --what made you believed that food, or water, or milk exists ?

Why we cry? It's built into our DNA. I doubt any belief was involved. Later, after crying and being fed enough we start to connect the two actions based on past experience. We learn to use crying as a means to get us what we want.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

"Person" is also an attribution, just like "deity", with varying interpretations (heard of animism?) - even if this weren't the case, gods don't have to be persons regardless of how you are defining that attribution.

Traditional religion - polytheistic peoples and animistic peoples - deify natural/social forces.

I do not need to deify (or personalize, or ascribe a "soul" to) natural phenoma. Deciding that the wind "wants" to blow is meaningless to me, because I understand what causes wind to blow (differences in air pressure). And I understand what causes differences in air pressure, too. I don't need to make up stories that anthopomorphize everything in sight. I need to understand them for what they are, what they do, how they might be used, or how they should be regarded -- dangerous, beneficial, etc.

When I was a child, when every other little brat kid was annoying their parents with incessant "why" questions (implying that everything has a reason or intention behind it), this little brat kid annoyed people by asking "how does it work?" I simply do not suspect intentional agency behind every natural event. Volcanoes don't blow because somebody's angry, and viruses aren't "sent" to punish. To me, these things are all ordered of themselves, no agency required.

 

[Nakosis]

My current conclusion is their attempts were doomed because they didn't know what they were talking about. "God" is such a nebulous concept that it can't be nailed either way.

This was my conclusion as well. It just took me a while.

 

[Nakosis]

Since I have no idea what real thing the word "God" is intended to denote, I have nowhere to stand when it comes to answering your question.

Yes, lots of assumptions are made when one uses the word God.