Are you equipped with a weapon?

[Revoltingest]

Was going to say I don’t own a weapon, then remembered I have two cavalry swords. They’d be the last thing I’d think of reaching for if anyone broke in the flat. Besides, I don’t own a horse, and a cavalry sword would probably be too unwieldy to use on foot.

Are you Americans always having to fight off armed home invaders btw? Must be exhausting…

I once had a tenant who woke up to find
a burglar in his bedroom. Burglar threatened
him with harm. Breaking & entering is a big
problem in university student housing.
It's as bad here as in Toronto.

 

[Laniakea]

First rule of self-defence will always be to run if possible.
In my view if you're too close to run, you're also probably too close to go fishing in your purse for your sidearm.

Why is it always assumed that the criminal with a gun will always be able to take down his victim, but the intended victim with a gun won't be able to take down the bad guy?
It seems to be a fatalistic mindset promoted by those who don't want people to be able to defend themselves.

 

[Laniakea]

It's not a matter of faith. It's a matter of gun control.

Even someone who's breaking into homes to steal stuff to sell for drug money knows better than to walk down the street carrying a long gun, and handguns are:

1. Hard to get legitimately, because they're restricted weapons,
2. Hard to get by stealing because: a) there aren't many of them and b) the secure storage requirements for restricted weapons are pretty strict.
3. Expensive to get on the black market (because of #1 and #2).


... so the people who have enough ready cash that they can buy an illicit gun that might be useful in a home invasion are generally not the people so hard up for cash that they'd resort to home invasions.

Are you familiar with the gun laws in Haiti? They're very strict. And yet, the gangsters there seem to have an easy time getting plenty of them. So guess who's in control of that country now. It's certainly not the good guys anymore. It's some guy who calls himself Barbeque.
I'm betting that the good citizens of Haiti are wishing that they were the ones who were armed at this point.

 

[libre]

Why is it always assumed that the criminal with a gun will always be able to take down his victim, but the intended victim with a gun won't be able to take down the bad guy?

... because the criminal has the initiative? Given that he is the assailant?

 

[libre]

It seems to be a fatalistic mindset promoted by those who don't want people to be able to defend themselves.

You're free to characterize me however you'd like.
As I said before, the first priority of self-defence is always to remove yourself from the situation and not get into an altercation.
However that's not the stuff of the macho fantasies people want to imagine themselves preparing for.

 

[Laniakea]

You're free to characterize me however you'd like.
As I said before, the first priority of self-defence is always to remove yourself from the situation and not get into an altercation.
However that's not the stuff of the macho fantasies people want to imagine themselves preparing for.

Sometimes it's not possible to remove oneself from the situation. Sometimes you're cornered.
But you seem convinced that it's just not possible for an armed citizen to defend themselves. Well, you may not like the source, but here is a link to thousands of accounts of citizens defending themselves, with news sources cited for each story: NRA Women | The Armed Citizen®

 

[libre]

But you seem convinced that it's just not possible for an armed citizen to defend themselves.

This is not my view.
I do however think that most 'self-defence' training and products targeted towards women (and to some extent men) are basically selling feelings of security and power rather than options that are going to be feasible.

I'm not an American and I live in a relatively safe place. If there was ever a time where I needed to consider purchasing a firearm for my safety, there would probably be better life choices like moving to a new area. I understand that's not an option for everyone and don't think that self-defence is impossible.

Realistically as a civilian with no firearm training, if a criminal comes at me with a gun with a headstart on the draw, I'm not walking away from that by trying to beat him to it.

 

[Laniakea]

This is not my view.
I do however think that most 'self-defence' training and products targeted towards women (and to some extent men) are basically selling feelings of security and power rather than options that are going to be feasible.

I'm not an American and I live in a relatively safe place. If there was ever a time where I needed to consider purchasing a firearm for my safety, there would probably be better life choices like moving to a new area. I understand that's not an option for everyone and don't think that self-defence is impossible.

Plenty of people live in "safe places" and are most surprised when they are attacked. Even the Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi probably felt safe until her husband was attacked by a hammer-wielding guy. There are people living in gated communities who end up victims of attacks. And when you're out in public, everyone is equally vulnerable.

Realistically as a civilian with no firearm training, if a criminal comes at me with a gun with a headstart on the draw, I'm not walking away from that by trying to beat him to it.

You're looking at it from a Hollywood perspective. Most encounters with criminals aren't like what you see in the movies.
If you're interested in seeing how often people successfully defend themselves, and you didn't like my previous link that referenced thousands of cases, then at least use this google search to show you the many news accounts: homeowner shoots intruder - Google Search

 

[metis]

We keep no weapons in our house, but trying to break in would be VERY problematic because our security doors, motion detector lights, day/night lights, and higher-up windows.

 

[Revoltingest]

I do however think that most 'self-defence' training and products targeted towards women (and to some extent men) are basically selling feelings of security and power rather than options that are going to be feasible.

Why do you think self defense weapons aren't "feasible", ie, useful?
Moreover, without training, weapons could easily be worse than useless.

Realistically as a civilian with no firearm training, if a criminal comes at me with a gun with a headstart on the draw, I'm not walking away from that by trying to beat him to it.

That is merely one scenario out of many possible.
What matters is the ability to defend oneself in
the range of likely situations. In fact, many people
do every year.

 

[Laniakea]

Why do you think self defense weapons aren't "feasible", ie, useful?
Moreover, without training, weapons could easily be worse than useless.

That is merely one scenario out of many possible.
What matters is the ability to defend oneself in
the range of likely situations. In fact, many people
do every year.

Don't you just love how people will claim that a bad guy with a gun will always be successful, and the good guy will always fail.
As if a gun in the hands of a bad guy is somehow more effective that if in the hands of a good guy.

 

[☆Dreamwind☆]

I have a stun gun, and I know I ought to take it with me more often.

 

[anna.]

According to Wikipedia there have been a total of 126 mountain lion attacks in North America in the last 100 years, 27 of which were fatal List of fatal cougar attacks in North America - Wikipedia

According to this site there were 18,874 firearm deaths (excluding suicides) in the USA in 2023 Gun Violence by the Numbers in 2023

Add another attack on two brothers and the fatality of one of them, sadly.

California brothers in deadly mountain lion attack identified

Taylen Robert Claude Brooks, 21, and Wyatt Jay Charles Brooks, 18, of Mount Aukum, were attacked by a mountain lion in El Dorado County, officials said.

www.sfgate.com

 

[Daemon Sophic]

I haven't owned a firearm in the last 16 years. I dismantled and gave away my rifle soon after my kids were born.
Why? Safety.
I’m too experienced and knowledgable to think my rare use of the weapon would do anything but endanger myself and my family.

Investigating the Link Between Gun Possession and Gun Assault

Homicide Deaths Among Adult Cohabitants of Handgun Owners in California, 2004 to 2016 : A Cohort Study - PubMed

 

[libre]

As if a gun in the hands of a bad guy is somehow more effective that if in the hands of a good guy.

Attackers advantage is a well documented phenomena.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why is it always assumed that the criminal with a gun will always be able to take down his victim, but the intended victim with a gun won't be able to take down the bad guy?
It seems to be a fatalistic mindset promoted by those who don't want people to be able to defend themselves.

That's not it. The actual assumptions are these:

- getting into a shootout with an attacker poses an unacceptably high risk to me.

- getting into a shootout with an attacker has an unacceptably low chance of reliably stopping the attacker.

It isn't about who "wins" between you and them. When you frame winning in terms of getting out of the situation unscathed, pulling out a gun to stand and fight is generally going to work against your goal if you have absolutely any other option available.

But that being said, an attacker will generally have the advantage, since - aside from violent episodes of mental illness - they get to choose all the parameters of the confrontation. If they feel like a situation doesn't give them good odds of success, they don't attack. You as the defender don't have this luxury, so you're at a disadvantage.

 

[Revoltingest]

Attackers advantage is a well documented phenomena.

Where's the documentation for the phenomenon?
I wonder, because having an advantage doesn't
mean armed self defense isn't useful.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Where's the documentation for the phenomenon?
I wonder, because having an advantage doesn't
mean armed self defense isn't useful.

Will a Gun Keep Your Family Safe? Here’s What the Evidence Says

Research shows that having a firearm in the house won’t necessarily help in a dangerous moment — and it will heighten other risks.

www.thetrace.org

In 2015, David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and Sara Solnick, an economist at the University of Vermont, analyzed national government surveys involving more than 14,000 people and reported that guns are used for self-protection in less than 1 percent of all crimes that take place in the presence of a victim. They also found that people were more likely to be injured after threatening attackers with guns than they were if they had called the police or run away.

And the article as a whole is worth reading.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Will a Gun Keep Your Family Safe? Here’s What the Evidence Says

Research shows that having a firearm in the house won’t necessarily help in a dangerous moment — and it will heighten other risks.

www.thetrace.org

And the article as a whole is worth reading.

Most of the story of gun use against humans can be summed up like this:

- having a gun in the home is a risk factor for suicide.
- having a gun in the home is a risk factor that domestic abuse, if it occurs, will end up killing the abuse victim.

All the talk about "defensive" gun use is about an effect that's smaller than the rounding error on these other two much larger effects.

 

[Revoltingest]

Will a Gun Keep Your Family Safe? Here’s What the Evidence Says

Research shows that having a firearm in the house won’t necessarily help in a dangerous moment — and it will heighten other risks.

www.thetrace.org

And the article as a whole is worth reading.

I'm suspicious of so much research on armed self defense.
Gary Kleck's finds the opposite of what you cite.
Going by people I know who've used guns in self defense,
there isn't a single case of adverse consequences. This
includes my own.
Among the problems I find with anti-gun statistics....
- Not including self defense where no shot was fired.
- Not separating the skilled from the un-skilled.
- Not separating safe storage from un-safe storage.

The claim made (that I responded to) was about the
assailant having an advantage....perhaps to negate
the value of self defense. That I found dubious.

Guns are dangerous. Very very dangerous.
Many people are untrained, poorly trained, or
even wrongly trained (eg, cops).
I favor strict regulation of training & storage
as a means of improving statistics. For those
unwilling to invest the time & money, there
are other options, eg...

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