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Are you sad that I am going to hell, or have you pretty much come to terms with it?

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
It bothers me that people will not experience bliss in the afterlife, but as I can't point to an individual and say "You are not saved", it is more abstract. I can only try to live my life in love and hope God can use me as a tool in some small way to spread His salvation.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Does it bother anyone? If you know someone you think is going to hell, does it eat away at you, or do you learn to just learn not everyone is going to realize the 'truth' or whatnot? Are you supposed to feel bad for those people, or happy they are getting justice or something?

I'd come to a realization that the experience of heaven is a cop-out. It's a looking-out-for-number-one perspective, where it's completely devaluing the impact and power of oneself, saying one isn't worthy of salvation, and depending on a deity to save them regardless of how much they've hurt themselves or others. After I left the Christian community, I looked back at how much I absolved myself of responsibility to other human beings because I was trying so hard to beg for mercy from God and spreading the word to others who hadn't yet accepted Jesus as their lord and savior.

I think it's also a closed door to ever having the opportunity to help others and experience what the joy of generosity is like. If I were in heaven, with no pain, no suffering, and no cares outside of glorifying God, I would not know what it was like to give a full weeks worth of groceries to a struggling family, and seeing the look of utter joy and gratitude that they will be able to eat all because of that gift.

So, when it came to the realization that I was trying to experience eternal bliss, that I was putting my faith in a deity to forgive me, and to recruit others into the same club because I felt that no happiness could exist outside of "being a Christian and saved", it had me in a position where I was far more judgemental of people simply based on their professed religious belief and not at all on who they are as a person and what their life experience had been like up to that point.....none of that mattered at all, just as long as they were Christian.

I became a much more forgiving person when I left the Christian community, more so when I realized my lack of belief in a deity at all, and even more so when I stopped believing in an eternal heaven and eternal hell after death.

My answer is that when I identified as a Christian, dust1n, I know that I would have quietly thought to myself that I would hope you'd find your way to Jesus, but that I would celebrate in God's righteousness and justice for the rules and that non-believers would get their rightful punishment for not believing. IOW, I'd turn off any compassion and nod solemnly toward God being just.

Therefore....I would not have felt sad at all.

It still is a reason why I personally cannot identify as a Christian with the heaven prerequisites firmly established, because to cope with the reality of people I know and love being tortured eternally in hell would require that I stop opening my heart in compassion for them. I came to the conclusion that there is no such thing as an either/or false dilemma when it comes to compassion or justice. I have seen that forgiveness, understanding, and openness can be coupled with education, repair for past hurts, and resolve when knowledge and understanding are attained.

I have found that the latter is much more transformative than worrying about who is going to be smiling forever in heaven and who is going to be screaming in pain forever in hell. I've seen many more lives touched and transformed long term and positively when the Heaven and Hell Doctrines are never considered.
 

sunni56

Active Member
If I were in heaven, with no pain, no suffering, and no cares outside of glorifying God, I would not know what it was like to give a full weeks worth of groceries to a struggling family, and seeing the look of utter joy and gratitude that they will be able to eat all because of that gift.
I'm sorry, but that does not make sense. If you were charitable in this world, and God rewarded you with eternal pleasures in the afterlife, isn't that an excellent reward for an excellent job? (Or as the Qur'an puts it; "Is there any reward for excellence, other than excellence?")
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I'm sorry, but that does not make sense. If you were charitable in this world, and God rewarded you with eternal pleasures in the afterlife, isn't that an excellent reward for an excellent job? (Or as the Qur'an puts it; "Is there any reward for excellence, other than excellence?")

It makes sense that while being rewarded forever and ever, I would never know what it was like ever again to bring joy to another person's life. Heaven would not afford me another chance.
 

sunni56

Active Member
It makes sense that while being rewarded forever and ever, I would never know what it was like ever again to bring joy to another person's life. Heaven would not afford me another chance.
But why would you want such a thing? You want another person to be deprived, just so you can have the satisfaction of giving them something that they can't get themselves?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
But why would you want such a thing? You want another person to be deprived, just so you can have the satisfaction of giving them something that they can't get themselves?

Where did I say I WANT people to suffer?

I made it clear that if people are already suffering, and I am in heaven experiencing eternal bliss, I cannot go to those who are suffering and help them. That door is shut if I were to believe in an eternal heaven only available to believers.
 

sunni56

Active Member
Where did I say I WANT people to suffer?

I made it clear that if people are already suffering, and I am in heaven experiencing eternal bliss, I cannot go to those who are suffering and help them. That door is shut if I were to believe in an eternal heaven only available to believers.
Actually, you did say you would rather bring a bunch of groceries to a struggling family (whatever that means) than be in heaven, which is a peculiar thing to say indeed.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Actually, you did say you would rather bring a bunch of groceries to a struggling family (whatever that means) than be in heaven, which is a peculiar thing to say indeed.

Yes I did. And I would rather have that kind of opportunity to help others for eternity than to be locked in a place where I was being showered with bliss.

I don't think it's peculiar at all. I feel it's ethically superior, in fact.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
*Post Removed*

LOL that's rich.

I do not expect people to have the same religious beliefs I do. But I want to help others regardless of their lot in life. To suggest that I reject heaven for the sake of helping others defines me as sadistic and insensitive is....peculiar.

I would rather find a way to help others who are suffering in hell than turn my back on those who aren't in heaven with me. This is why I cannot in good conscience identify myself as a Christian, and it's because I was more concerned about getting people to believe the exact same religious belief than I was concerned about what they were experiencing in the here and now.

I'm more concerned about helping others. What a shame you find that insensitive.
 
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sunni56

Active Member
LOL that's rich.

I do not expect people to have the same religious beliefs I do. But I want to help others regardless of their lot in life. To suggest that I reject heaven for the sake of helping others defines me as sadistic and insensitive is....peculiar.

I would rather find a way to help others who are suffering in hell than turn my back on those who aren't in heaven with me. This is why I cannot in good conscience identify myself as a Christian, and it's because I was more concerned about getting people to believe the exact same religious belief than I was concerned about what they were experiencing in the here and now.

I'm more concerned about helping others. What a shame you find that insensitive.
Well, best case scenario is to hope that people enter eternal salvation. Not for people to be deprived so that they can become your plaything. That's vile and sadistic.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
No, instead we should all aspire to become god's plaything; because you know... that wouldn't imply vile or sadistic behavior on the part of god... because he/she/it/they are god, so being their plaything is... the 'best case scenario'.
 
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MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Well, best case scenario is to hope that people enter eternal salvation. Not for people to be deprived so that they can become your plaything. That's vile and sadistic.

Well, that assumes that it's entirely possible to have everybody that ever lived have the exact same religious beliefs that one's deity demands. Is there an assumption that is likely to happen? Or is it more likely that not everybody is going to believe the exact same religious beliefs?

I live in the real world, where real people believe wildly different things about the universe and what happens after death. I'd prefer to spend more time actually helping people who are actually hurting right now than trying to convince them of believing in a specific deity and it's afterlife.

But, go ahead and keep it up with the ad hominem attacks about how I'm sadistic, vile, pathetic, insenstive, blah blah blah....I've seen the differences in how people's lives are changed when compared to how I used to evangelize to them and how I now just help them. I have real life experience behind me as evidence to show what really is more transformative and compassionate.

And to think, I haven't even pulled out my whip yet. I can show real and actual sadism if one REALLY wants to see it. Gotta give me a safe word first, though. :p
 

Raban

Hagian
I unlike many Christians believe that 'Hell' or the idea thereof is a refinement, and that through whatever means all shall find atonement and be redeemed, however I believe it is not a business of punishment and then being 'allowed' into the 'afterlife'. I view it as a more change of heart, so I believe that none will be condemned to hell eternally. Therefore I have 'come to terms' with such a thing. However, though I do not know you personally, there are many whom I know that anyone of any Christian denomination would assume would go to hell. And though there is a part of me that is mournful, I do not believe there is a permanent hell, and or a permanent state 'wickedness'. Nor do I think that just because someone isn't Christian they will be condemned.
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
I unlike many Christians believe that 'Hell' or the idea thereof is a refinement, and that through whatever means all shall find atonement and be redeemed, however I believe it is not a business of punishment and then being 'allowed' into the 'afterlife'. I view it as a more change of heart, so I believe that none will be condemned to hell eternally. Therefore I have 'come to terms' with such a thing. However, though I do not know you personally, there are many whom I know that anyone of any Christian denomination would assume would go to hell. And though there is a part of me that is mournful, I do not believe there is a permanent hell, and or a permanent state 'wickedness'. Nor do I think that just because someone isn't Christian they will be condemned.

You are a liberal Methodist? Very intriguing I must say. Can you textually back up these beliefs with the Bible alone? Or is your judgement in this issue just based from personal reasoning?
 

Raban

Hagian
As for the belief of namesake of religion being important, I have some verses on hand. For example depending on how one interprets the parable of the Syrophoenician woman. Though she isn't Hebrew, she however is deemed worthy of having her child healed, because her faith is great, even though she is not a follower of the Jewish God. Some would say she was converted when she saw Jesus, however though that may have been the case, I believe that her 'faith' was her righteous discernment on the Earth. There is also the instance when a Roman centurion's slave is healed, however those are rather weak arguments based on assumptions. I will endeavor to find more evidence of this thought, however, I admit though this thought was strengthened by reading the Bible, and other world scriptures, it is something that I found appealing to reason with the thought of a loving God. In the Bible it says Jesus did not come for the healthy and righteous but for the wicked. And there are many who are not wicked but are not Christian, and I do not believe they will be punished in 'hell' simply because they were born into a foreign religion and culture. As far as the belief that Hell is only temporary, that is a more personal opinion. (For me, a loving God would not forsake his creations if he does love them and if he is good, but he would heal them. So it is logic based I supposed. In some non-canonical books there is some mentioning of such ideas. As far as in the New Testament which I am more familiar, I have do not recall anything like that, and it's been too long since I read the Old.) As I previously stated, I will try and find more evidence to support such beliefs.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
That very concept that people could go to hell what why I left the Christian church. I was pretty young when I started questioning that concept. I was part of a very exclusive small group that believed they were the only way to salvation. It made me realize that if God was really that way, I wanted nothing to do with him. So I left. I no longer believe in hell or most anything in the Bible for that matter.

Speaking as an atheist, the doctrine of hell is our best recruiting tool. :D
 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
The irony to saying that hell is the best recruiting tool is the fact that the most abundant religions which are Christianity, Catholicism and Islam both have a concept of hell within their doctrine. Is this coincidence or perhaps meticulous planned thinking?
 

arhys

Member
Are you supposed to feel bad for those people, or happy they are getting justice or something?

Religion is like triage. Treat the wound, move on, hope for the best. Man cannot come to faith entirely of his own free will, so stressing over one soul is counter-productive in the long run. I will say, though, that there is no shame in sorrowing over the sins of others, nor delighting in God's divine justice and His plans for humanity.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
It bothers me that people will not experience bliss in the afterlife, but as I can't point to an individual and say "You are not saved", it is more abstract. I can only try to live my life in love and hope God can use me as a tool in some small way to spread His salvation.

Amen brother Emu.
 
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