Are you saved?

[thau]

“Interesting how some powers to be believe that it is perfectly fine to molest little children…”

Whom might that be?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

With respect to your implied labeling a hellish sentence for some mere mortals to be complete lunacy and cruelty, I might suggest that the gift of free will does have its risks.

In following, I take it then you resent God giving you a free will and eternal life? Maybe making us all robots without the freedom to choose was not as gratifying to God? And for that we should probably then be defiant angry creatures with no cause for gratitude?

 

[waitasec]

“Interesting how some powers to be believe that it is perfectly fine to molest little children…”

Whom might that be?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

With respect to your implied labeling a hellish sentence for some mere mortals to be complete lunacy and cruelty, I might suggest that the gift of free will does have its risks.

In following, I take it then you resent God giving you a free will and eternal life? Maybe making us all robots without the freedom to choose was not as gratifying to God? And for that we should probably then be defiant angry creatures with no cause for gratitude?

this post reminds me of something one would see in the rants and raves section of craigslist...

not what you said but how it's laid out...

 

[waitasec]

Have you just abandoned words alltogether? Does your entire position consist of emoticons at this time?

 

[waitasec]

I didn't say they were not meaningful. In fact I said they were specifically meaningful. I was not looking to debate this issue at this time. I wanted the Reverends opinion. I am not complaining about your post I am just short on time.

:foot:

 

[waitasec]

Man( 99%) has learned nothing but how to be puppets of the ruler of this world( satan) They put their reliance on the god of fortresses( war supplies) the #1 seller on the earth. Its their desperate treacherous hearts that lead them. They have proved they will pollute the water,land,air for the allmighty $$$ -- they sell the human race cancer 7 days a week for the allmighty $$$-- They do not know God, same as in Noahs day. They stand outside of the ark jeering and laughing. The door is about to be shut.

:biglaugh:
:canoe:

 

[Reverend Richard]

Fine, have it your way.

Oh, sounds like we're getting a bit touchy. I meant no offense. I was merely stating my position.

Here is what I interpret from your words above: “We cannot know anything about God for certain, therefore we are not under any obligation to observe any morals or laws. The Bible may very well be inspired, but who is to say which parts and what did man do to alter it’s meaning?”

Well, that sounds close, but you left out a couple of important details.

First, I have no idea whether I am right or not in my beliefs, and I am willing to admit that.

Second, for many years as both a Baptist, and then later a Catholic, I felt I was right in my beliefs. It's true that when I switched denominations I had to "unlearn" some of my old beliefs, and even learn to justify new ones. However, after having had two very different perspectives on "salvation" I began to read more about other faiths to find out what they believed and why. The more I learned, the more I became comfortable with the ambiguity of who God really is, versus what scripture (man) says He is.

For example, the entire New Testament is built on the premise that Jesus was fulfillment of the Jewish prophecy of the promised messiah. If he is not, then his death, burial, and resurrection is for naught. However, after I began to understand, from the Jewish perspective, what that prophecy was, I also understood why the Jews did not accept Jesus. Christians point to very specific Old Testament scripture to show why and how Jesus is the promised messiah, but then Christians ignore a great deal of the rest of the scripture that Jesus did not fulfill. So, if we as Christians feel free to ignore the unfulfilled parts of Old Testament scripture, why should we insist that Christians got it right, and the Jews got it wrong. It's just a double standard.

How appealing. One can live their life however they please and if there is a God and an eternal life after death, surely we are deserving as anyone else to be allowed in since God did nothing verifiable to tell us otherwise.

This last statement is disingenous and is a poor attempt at a summary of our discussion.

 

[Reverend Richard]

I agree that scripture has not been passed down perfectly. It was not guaranteed that it would be. The original revelations were assured as accurate and true. This is stated in the Chicago statement of faith. My issue is to what extent you allow for corruption. In my studies I have concluded as have scholars such as Dr James White that as Bart Ehrman says there are approx 400,000 errors in the total textual tradition of the bible. Most people mistakenly assume that means every bible contains 400,000 errors. The numbers work out to less than approx 100,000 errors in a respected and accepted major version of the bible. Since even Ehrman admits that 95% of these are meaningless and trivial and none effect doctrine then that only leaves somewhere around 5000 meaningful errors in a single bible version. Since a bible has somewhere around 800,000 words then this is only a .00625 error percentage. Since computers exist they know where the errors are, most are indicated in moderbn bibles, and since scholars believe all the original revelation exists in the textual tradition then I find this virtually supernaturally accurate. The bible has a vastly more reliable textual tradition than any other work of ancient history and many of modern history.

My question is do you find the bible roughly as accurate or do assert a significantly different degree of accuracy concerning the bible?

Shalom,

Attempting to quantify, in percentages, matters that involve belief, is futile.

Yes, you can quantify to some degree, how many typos appear in a document. And typos could change meanings to some degree, but what we do not know is the accuracy of events that are presented in the Bible. Some events in the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) are reflected in external historical documents. However, many important others are not, so there is no way to determine which of those events might be historical fact versus others that are simply written to reinforce a belief or an agenda.

As far as we know, Jesus never wrote a single document, nor did he ask any of his disciples to write one. Even sincere Christian scholar agree that much of the New Testament was written decades after Jesus' death, so events that were written down are based on human memory, and in some cases, second-hand knowledge of Christ's ministry. For example, the apostle Paul never even met Jesus, and yet most of what we believe today regarding Christianity is the result of Pauls letters written to early Christian churches.

So, to answer your final question above, I find the Bible a useful guide for leading a moral life and learning how we should treat our fellow human beings on this planet. Most of us, including myself, fall far short of following even those simple tenents. So attempting to interpret it in terms of sin, damnation, salvation, and eternal life, that's more in the realm of metaphysics and it is impossible to tie any kind of numbers to it in terms of its accuracy.

 

[jasonwill2]

Saved from the ruler of this world, and ones own desperate, treacherous heart.Both mislead.

What?

 

[thau]

Oh, sounds like we're getting a bit touchy. I meant no offense. I was merely stating my position.

Well, that sounds close, but you left out a couple of important details.

First, I have no idea whether I am right or not in my beliefs, and I am willing to admit that.

Second, for many years as both a Baptist, and then later a Catholic, I felt I was right in my beliefs. It's true that when I switched denominations I had to "unlearn" some of my old beliefs, and even learn to justify new ones. However, after having had two very different perspectives on "salvation" I began to read more about other faiths to find out what they believed and why. The more I learned, the more I became comfortable with the ambiguity of who God really is, versus what scripture (man) says He is.

For example, the entire New Testament is built on the premise that Jesus was fulfillment of the Jewish prophecy of the promised messiah. If he is not, then his death, burial, and resurrection is for naught. However, after I began to understand, from the Jewish perspective, what that prophecy was, I also understood why the Jews did not accept Jesus. Christians point to very specific Old Testament scripture to show why and how Jesus is the promised messiah, but then Christians ignore a great deal of the rest of the scripture that Jesus did not fulfill. So, if we as Christians feel free to ignore the unfulfilled parts of Old Testament scripture, why should we insist that Christians got it right, and the Jews got it wrong. It's just a double standard.

This last statement is disingenous and is a poor attempt at a summary of our discussion.

First of all, you are making this far too personal. My speculations are not directed towards you, they are trying to describe the mind set of general attitudes out there. Such as my very last statement which you call disingenuous. You have not met that man?... the one who says I’m a good person, I deserve heaven, I don’t sin much at all, etc., but never darkens the door of a church or sincerely prays to his Lord on a regular basis except to ask for a lottery win? These are the people that concern me the most because as Jesus says “father forgive them, they know not what they do.”

I also believe you misinterpreted my words in the first line. No, reverend, I am not offended in the least by anyone’s words on these boards. I always figured the man who gets upset or feels offended is the one who is quite insincere in his own skin. And that is not me. I am a grateful Christian certain of Jesus as One and Only and ready to accept suffering and setback during our earthly trial even though I do not necessarily enjoy it.

Finally, so you have at least honestly declared you thought you knew the truth on various occasions but now you realize you did not or could not have known. Ok, I believe you. But what you go further to imply is that none of us can know the truth. Why is that? Because you have been given that knowledge that no one can know?

Well, I am sorry but I do know. I know just as well as St. Peter knew and St. Paul knew. I know just as well as the glorified saints of the Catholic Church knew. God reveals Himself to those He chooses or to those who keep the demands of His covenant, and for other reasons as well. I have been given way, way too much to not be sure. For me to turn my back on God now would be eternally fatal. The evidence for Jesus Christ as the Son of God goes far beyond just Scripture. I really am not concerned if certain passages in the Old Testament do not seem to have been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. The devil is clever and all it takes is a seed or two of doubt for many souls to remain uncommitted. That is a comfort zone for them, but not nearly as justified as they would be led to believe.

So you or another can go through this life convincing quite a number that we can never know who God is, or which one is God, or what we are supposed to do, or if heaven and hell even exist, and you can tell them all not to worry. But quite frankly, I find that type of “kindness” to be awfully dangerous if not diabolic in some ways. No, you would not be accused of evil I highly doubt, but such ignorance is doing the devil’s bidding. It is keeping God’s people in the dark and it shows in how they choose to live their lives.

So if I have offended you (again) then I am sorry. Perhaps I am not clever enough to put this in kinder words or less direct words. But these religion boards never seem to change. They are filled with skeptics who think if they can top the Christian guy they are talking to then they have won an important battle and the war is going well for them ---- especially because there are so many willing ears around here to embrace their message. And then once again I summarize with my speculations why there are so many eager unbelievers and doubters. Because I do doubt their sincerity, I believe they want the easy way out in life and it is as Jesus says --- their hearts are sluggish. There is simply too much at stake here for me to be overly polite or cowardly about this.

 

[1robin]

Attempting to quantify, in percentages, matters that involve belief, is futile.

Yes, you can quantify to some degree, how many typos appear in a document. And typos could change meanings to some degree, but what we do not know is the accuracy of events that are presented in the Bible. Some events in the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) are reflected in external historical documents. However, many important others are not, so there is no way to determine which of those events might be historical fact versus others that are simply written to reinforce a belief or an agenda.

This is not at all what I was expecting. So your position is the bible is between 0% and 100% accurate and there is really no reason to care what exactly it is. Since countless scholars have found this important enough to base entire careers and books on and there have been entire classes of people who have been specifically trained to accurately copy the texts and some who have even been killed for failure I do not share your valuation of this subject. In jurice prudence the percentage of what can be verified is used to establish the reliability of what can't be. The bible contains 25,000 historical corroberations, thousands of fulfilled prophecies, philisophic and scientific claims that are consistent with reality. Since proof for the more supernatural claims would eliminate the need for faith then I do not think we were meant to know those for sure. Using the rest as a guide then what isn't verifiable is still reliable.

As far as we know, Jesus never wrote a single document, nor did he ask any of his disciples to write one. Even sincere Christian scholar agree that much of the New Testament was written decades after Jesus' death, so events that were written down are based on human memory, and in some cases, second-hand knowledge of Christ's ministry. For example, the apostle Paul never even met Jesus, and yet most of what we believe today regarding Christianity is the result of Pauls letters written to early Christian churches.

They were all written within the life spans of eye witnesses and the bible is almost totally unique among ancient texts in this regard. They were also written way too soon for any sophisticated myth to develop. Paul met the resurrected Jesus and since he was an expert in the law and was tasked with starting the transition of the church not recording Jesus' life because there were four other writers doing that, then I find him more than qualified. If I wanted to know haow Jesus fed 5000 then I look to the gospels. If I want to know doctrinal issues that deal with the law and grace I look to Paul among others.

So, to answer your final question above, I find the Bible a useful guide for leading a moral life and learning how we should treat our fellow human beings on this planet. Most of us, including myself, fall far short of following even those simple tenents. So attempting to interpret it in terms of sin, damnation, salvation, and eternal life, that's more in the realm of metaphysics and it is impossible to tie any kind of numbers to it in terms of its accuracy.

I will just have to disagree. Since you fall short what can you do about it since every word about Jesus could be corrupted and so could not be used to develop a faith that allows God to save. I thought you might be slightly higher or lower in your percentage but the lack of concern is strange. To be honest I know my numbers are pretty accurate, this is a subject I have researched for years. It is vitally important, in fact it is one of the most important issues in human history. Since computers exist almost every error is known and indicated which is good because many times a comma makes a large doctinal difference. As I said the bible is supernaturally accurate and is vastly more reliable than in any other text in ancient literature. Selah,

 

[jasonwill2]

Does it even matter if we are saved? Do we even have free will? I have run it through my mind several times and I don't think someone can prove free will, so does it matter or not if we can't even choose? Perhaps we should just live our lives for the best here and now?

 

[waitasec]

what?!? living for the here and now???
how absurd!!!

 

[jasonwill2]

what?!? living for the here and now???
how absurd!!!

I know, it sounds so heretical when we must always be concerned with an afterlife of which we can't objectively really know anything about. :sarcastic

 

[McBell]

How would rejecting God or Jesus equal burning forever ?

God forces No one to worship him so how could that equal burning forever.

No one has asked to be born. Life is a gift from our Heavenly Father.
However, Adam could live forever only if obedient.
Adam was taught disobedience meant death not eternal burning.
From dust back to dust. [equal]

Those committing the unforgivable sin [Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6; 10 v 26]
will be destroyed forever, Not burnt forever. -Psalm 92 v 7; Proverbs 2 vs 21,22; 10 v 30
Destroyed as Acts [3 v 23] and Ezekiel [22 v 27 B] mentions.

You are going to have to go ask those who actually believe that stuff.
Since i do not believe it, I can only speculate as to the why.

 

[McBell]

“Interesting how some powers to be believe that it is perfectly fine to molest little children…”

Whom might that be?

Your feigned ignorance is most entertaining.
However, it is also off topic.

the Pedophile Priest Posse topic has already been done to death on this forum.
If you like, you can go resurrect one of those threads or start your own.

I merely brought it up to show how inconsistent the beliefs are.

With respect to your implied labeling a hellish sentence for some mere mortals to be complete lunacy and cruelty, I might suggest that the gift of free will does have its risks.

In following, I take it then you resent God giving you a free will and eternal life? Maybe making us all robots without the freedom to choose was not as gratifying to God? And for that we should probably then be defiant angry creatures with no cause for gratitude?

Since I do not believe your flavour of god even exists...
But do not let fact or truth stop you from attacking your strawmen.

 

[jasonwill2]

How would rejecting God or Jesus equal burning forever ?

God forces No one to worship him so how could that equal burning forever.

No one has asked to be born. Life is a gift from our Heavenly Father.
However, Adam could live forever only if obedient.
Adam was taught disobedience meant death not eternal burning.
From dust back to dust. [equal]

Those committing the unforgivable sin [Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6; 10 v 26]
will be destroyed forever, Not burnt forever. -Psalm 92 v 7; Proverbs 2 vs 21,22; 10 v 30
Destroyed as Acts [3 v 23] and Ezekiel [22 v 27 B] mentions.

Is that sin the blasphemy of the holy ghost/renunciation of the trinity/holy spirit? That's the only one I have heard that fits that description. Been there and done that, but I can't say that I have a lick of fear about going to Hell because of it. So as for being saved, it really isn't a concern. If I'm right, there was no worries in the first place as there is no Hell. But if I'm wrong, I'm screwed now anyway and so it doesn't matter.

Either way, asking myself this is a moot question.

Ave Satana.

 

[Astravalon]

Well for starters, you have to accept this gift. So there is a requirement on our part, not just on what Jesus has done. It grows from there with obvious purpose. Our gratitude is a mockery if we do not live it.

I do understand that in some traditions it is said to be up to the individual to accept the gift of salvation (synergism). My own take on it is monergistic, that God does it all from start to finish. I still believe it's a gift -- not the type one might receive at Christmastime, which can be returned/refused, but more like the gift of life itself, bestowed simply because that's what God wanted to do, our vote not needed in the process.

If endless torment seems unworthy of Him, then why would temporal earthly torment make any sense?

I see a huge difference between temporary suffering and eternal misery. At least, with the former, there's the guarantee of a happy ending.

I might add, nowhere have I been taught that we are to judge eternal destinies of any man. In other words, we are never to say that “this person deserves to go to hell.” Forbidden. Consider the verse “to which you have measured others will be measured back to you.”

Amen; I agree! :yes:

Finally, thank you very much for that link to John Paul II quotes or writings. I completely agree with the first one, so not sure why you and I are even arguing? As to all the others, I have not gotten to them yet. He’s hard to argue with, for me.

I was totally blown away when I had found those quotes -- I never knew John Paul II believed those things. Before posting them on my blog, I made sure to double-check with the Vatican website just to be sure they were legit. Awesome stuff!

Ps – your blue picture is very cool.

Thanks!


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[javajo]

These are those who think they are christian--Matt 7: 21-23-- its obvious they believe on the name of Jesus enough to do powerful works in his name--they will also be calling on his name-- i would say they had a powerful love for Jesus as well, their jaws will be dropped because a mortal told them they were saved, but that mortal didnt have a clue.

I believe those people thought they would be saved because of all their good works, which the Bible refers to as dead works. We are to repent from trusting in our own dead works and trust alone in Christ's finished work on the cross to have paid our sin penalty. The penalty of sin is death, so Christ died, thus paying our penalty, when we trust him for that we have, as a free gift, from that moment on, eternal life.

The bottom line of actually being saved is this-- Those who endure till the end will be saved.

I believe this is the mistake those in Matt. 7:21-23 made, they thought they could do something to save or help save themselves. Pride got in the way and instead of trusting in Christ, they trusted in their own self-righteousness and dead works.

No mortal has ever seen a name written in the book of life, no mortal can read anothers true heart, no mortal can possibly know who will endure till the end

Here's my belief. Here is this "enduring to the end" phrase again...it actually refers to those few who will live through the Tribulation. Salvation is a free gift, not of works lest any man should boast. Good works and conduct follow as a result of salvation and are evidence of salvation, but salvation is by grace, that is totally undeserved, unmerited, unearned favor because of God's love.

I would say the moral of this truth is that if ones religious teacher is telling someone that they are saved( or born again) that that teacher resides in the darkness and Jesus is not with him.

I believe if the Bible tells us that we may know we have eternal life right now by our faith in Christ, then we can trust the Bible for that. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

As far as having ones sin forgiven one must confess to God and also repent--repentence gets sin blotted out-acts 3:19-- Jesus death just opened the door for all to repent to get forgivness. Jesus death bought back what Adam lost for mankind. That is why at Matt 7:21-23-- a worker of iniquity( lawlessness) = a practicer of sin--showing that if one practices sin they will not be forgiven,so Jesus death does not automatically cover it.

I believe when one repents, which simply means to change one's mind, from how they think they can save or help save themselves, and they turn from their own dead works and self-righteous hypocrisy and trust in Christ and his finished work to have paid our sin debt, they are also turning from sin and pride to faith in Christ. Does this mean we will never sin? No. No matter how hard we try, because of our old sinful nature that rises up, we will sin. Does sin have consequences? Yes, in this life pain and destruction and broken relationships and sickness and all kinds of things result from sin, and in the next life, loss of reward and position. But God corrects all his sons and daughters and lovingly guides and teaches them and helps them grow in grace, the grace they are already in, the eternal life they were freely given as a free gift because of what Christ has done, not what they have done. That is my belief.

 

[kjw47]

I believe those people thought they would be saved because of all their good works, which the Bible refers to as dead works. We are to repent from trusting in our own dead works and trust alone in Christ's finished work on the cross to have paid our sin penalty. The penalty of sin is death, so Christ died, thus paying our penalty, when we trust him for that we have, as a free gift, from that moment on, eternal life.
I believe this is the mistake those in Matt. 7:21-23 made, they thought they could do something to save or help save themselves. Pride got in the way and instead of trusting in Christ, they trusted in their own self-righteousness and dead works.
Here's my belief. Here is this "enduring to the end" phrase again...it actually refers to those few who will live through the Tribulation. Salvation is a free gift, not of works lest any man should boast. Good works and conduct follow as a result of salvation and are evidence of salvation, but salvation is by grace, that is totally undeserved, unmerited, unearned favor because of God's love.
I believe if the Bible tells us that we may know we have eternal life right now by our faith in Christ, then we can trust the Bible for that. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I believe when one repents, which simply means to change one's mind, from how they think they can save or help save themselves, and they turn from their own dead works and self-righteous hypocrisy and trust in Christ and his finished work to have paid our sin debt, they are also turning from sin and pride to faith in Christ. Does this mean we will never sin? No. No matter how hard we try, because of our old sinful nature that rises up, we will sin. Does sin have consequences? Yes, in this life pain and destruction and broken relationships and sickness and all kinds of things result from sin, and in the next life, loss of reward and position. But God corrects all his sons and daughters and lovingly guides and teaches them and helps them grow in grace, the grace they are already in, the eternal life they were freely given as a free gift because of what Christ has done, not what they have done. That is my belief.

One must be serving the true God to start with. And if Jesus paid for our sins why has every human died thus paying the wages of sin?

 

[Astravalon]

One must be serving the true God to start with. And if Jesus paid for our sins why has every human died thus paying the wages of sin?

I may be wrong, but it's my understanding that the death Jesus was dealing with was spiritual rather than physical. Even in the Garden of Eden, Adam & Eve evidently were physically mortal before the Fall, as after the Fall God had to shoo them out of there so they wouldn't eat of the Tree of Life and live forever in their fallen state:

Genesis 3:22-24:

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
​

Physical death is probably no more spiritually significant than any other stage the body goes through, such as getting wisdom teeth, going through puberty or menopause. What we call physical "death" is just the soul shedding it's outer skin -- kind of like molting, I guess. It's just the next -- and final -- stage in the human body's timeline.

All just my take on it, though.


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