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Are you sure you are an Atheist?

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
What do you have to lose anyways by taking a chance with Jesus?
How are you so sure that people here haven't?

What if your wrong?
Won't God know that you're just pretending to believe for the sake of gambling with your eternal life? And it's rather selfish as well, or very much satisfying the ego to have to save yourself. What is my soul? And what right do I have to force God's hand to save me or punish me? Isn't it all God's decision anyway and not mine? It's better to live a great life and die happy, then to spend your whole life frustrated and in fear of upsetting God and still not be sure in the end if you're saved or not. Anxiety disorders aren't pretty. But freedom from stress gives a happy life.

It actually takes guts to stand up to God and say, "no more!" Don't fall into God's trap or requirements for salvation. So many are going to Hell only because he set us up to fail. In the end, to be righteous, is to stand up to the unfair and unholy God who created sin and hell.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Anyone who doesn't worship God or denies his existence are Satan worshipers.
How can you worship an entity you don't believe in? That also goes against Satanism, because according to Satanism Satan does not want us to worship him. He set us free so that we could have the choice to worship god or worship no one, including Satan.
Satanism is all about self indulgence with no rules and no consequences.
What's irrational and ignorant is to claim Satanism has no rules or consequences. When you look at it's rules, it's actually very much a "live and let live" type of thing.
It sounds to me that it's irrational and ignorant. the choice is simple it's black and white. Are you soooo sure that you are willing to bet your eternal soul? And if you're are wrong about it wouldn't' you want to know?
And what if you picked the wrong religion? What if you picked the right one, and you angered Jesus for even considering reducing faith to a wager?
It sounds to me that it's irrational and ignorant. the choice is simple it's black and white. Are you soooo sure that you are willing to bet your eternal soul? And if you're are wrong about it wouldn't' you want to know? I mean when you die that's its over. What do you have to lose anyways by taking a chance with Jesus?
Many of us are not concerned. Fear does not motivate us in such a way.
But what is there to gain, redemption, forgiveness, grace, unconditional love, contentment, discipline, wisdom and most importantly eternal life in the Presence of the Lord.
What do I need this "redemption and forgiveness" for? What is this "grace?" What if I find being content to be a weakness? And I have discipline and a deal of wisdom without Jesus.
Don't believe in eternity? What if your wrong?
What if you are wrong? What if when you die your heart is weighed against a feather in the presence of Osiris and Ma'at? What if your Karma sends you back to live another incarnation? What if the honored halls of Valhalla are the highest honor for the dead?
Also, perception can stand against Truth and Truth is absolute! There can only be 1 Truth. "The Truth is the Truth, whether you believe it or not"!
Truth is in the eye of the beholder, because there are no truths, only interpretations.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
No, that's wrong. You are grappling with words and beating around the bush. Nobody knows about this object or material. The FIRST PERSON, This is obviously the creator of that object.

Sorry, I was mistakenly under the assumption that you were making presumptions with the POSING of this question. I wasn't aware you were also making presumptions about how I would ANSWER it. Appears I was wrong.

You realise this is a redundant question, that being the case, right? You are basically driving towards a rote response which then confirms your pre-existing bias?

Anyway. Ok. Let's play it your way. Assuming 'person' just means 'creator' what you are saying is the the one who created something is the only one who can explain it, given that it's never been seen before, right?

So, the best 'person' to describe a bee hive is the bee.

No, wait...that doesn't work.

The best person to describe the cross-pollinated plant species is the creator. Well...apart from a whole raft of botanists who have additional understanding of what actually happens, above and beyond the mechanics.

Wait...better example...

The person who can describe the alien spaceship that lands is the alien. No...wait...the builder of the ship. Or maybe it's the designer of the ship, right?

There ya go, I even used a keyword for you;
'Designer'

Hint:
This is where you can ignore all nuance and discussion, claims it's word salad, clutch on to the word 'Designer', and bring Allah into the equation.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
God explains to us that we choose Him or the Enemy (Satan) A or B, there is no C option. I believe atheists just refuse to choose, which automatically means you choose B. So, I think that Atheists are Satanist. Anyone who doesn't worship God or denies his existence are Satan worshipers. Satanism is all about self indulgence with no rules and no consequences.I mean does that even sound reasonable? It sounds to me that it's irrational and ignorant. the choice is simple it's black and white. Are you soooo sure that you are willing to bet your eternal soul? And if you're are wrong about it wouldn't' you want to know? I mean when you die that's its over. What do you have to lose anyways by taking a chance with Jesus? Well you lose control, which we never had anyway, you would lose the unaccountability, freedom to do bad and smile about it. Most importantly, your soul! But what is there to gain, redemption, forgiveness, grace, unconditional love, contentment, discipline, wisdom and most importantly eternal life in the Presence of the Lord. Check out Proverbs, try God on for a month, you can always go back. I mean some people just love to sin and sin has destroyed everything from the very 1st one. it will eventually destroy you as well. But gave us free will and the choices we make up to, and including where we want to spend eternity. Don't believe in eternity? What if your wrong?

I rarely hear Pascal's Wager presented as an argument, so kudos for digging that out.

Forget atheists, for a second. How do Muslims fit into you theory? And how do Hindus fit?
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
Sorry, I was mistakenly under the assumption that you were making presumptions with the POSING of this question. I wasn't aware you were also making presumptions about how I would ANSWER it. Appears I was wrong.

You realise this is a redundant question, that being the case, right? You are basically driving towards a rote response which then confirms your pre-existing bias?

Anyway. Ok. Let's play it your way. Assuming 'person' just means 'creator' what you are saying is the the one who created something is the only one who can explain it, given that it's never been seen before, right?

So, the best 'person' to describe a bee hive is the bee.

No, wait...that doesn't work.

The best person to describe the cross-pollinated plant species is the creator. Well...apart from a whole raft of botanists who have additional understanding of what actually happens, above and beyond the mechanics.

Wait...better example...

The person who can describe the alien spaceship that lands is the alien. No...wait...the builder of the ship. Or maybe it's the designer of the ship, right?

There ya go, I even used a keyword for you;
'Designer'

Hint:
This is where you can ignore all nuance and discussion, claims it's word salad, clutch on to the word 'Designer', and bring Allah into the equation.
Exactly, the designer. Same way the creator, you cannot have the existence of universe and everything on earth and things of that sort randomly. It is logic to believe that there is a creator.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Answer this. How did life come into existence? How was the whole universe created? Nothingness is obviously illogical.

How would I know? I prefer not to claim answers to all of life's questions, but instead only to those to which I have answers.

But if I said it was created by Atius Tirawa what would you tell me?

I'm fine with responding to your questions but at some point you should consider the implications of the answers.
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
How would I know? I prefer not to claim answers to all of life's questions, but instead only to those to which I have answers.

But if I said it was created by Atius Tirawa what would you tell me?

I'm fine with responding to your questions but at some point you should consider the implications of the answers.
Exactly. If you told me that it was created by Atius Tirawa, i would obviously say it is false. He is from a folk tale. Besides he has human qualities and does things a God would not do.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Exactly. If you told me that it was created by Atius Tirawa, i would obviously say it is false. He is from a folk tale. Besides he has human qualities and does things a God would not do.

Are you beginning to see the presumptiveness of your original question?
As a means of proving even monotheism it's useless, far less Islam.

And of course a Pawnee god is merely a folk tale. After all, he's not your God.

C'mon seriously? This isn't making you rethink the utility of your Creator question at all?
 

Onyx

Active Member
Premium Member
God explains to us that we choose Him or the Enemy (Satan) A or B, there is no C option.

I chose option "C" over 30 years ago, because I don't believe in "A" or "B". If you do, then that's your prerogative, but please don't shove your opinions down my throat.

Satanism is all about self indulgence with no rules and no consequences.

This is absolutely false. I live within reasonable limits and obey the law to the letter. My job carries a lot of responsibility, and I have some of the best clients in town. I haven't had a *single* traffic ticket in my entire life, nor have been accused of any crime whatsoever. How are you doing?

And for the Devil's sake, you are welcome to PM me, but four in a row is a bit excessive.
 
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Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
How would I know? I prefer not to claim answers to all of life's questions, but instead only to those to which I have answers.

But if I said it was created by Atius Tirawa what would you tell me?

I'm fine with responding to your questions but at some point you should consider the implications of the answers.
Now lets use accuracy, because it is important. I will use accuracy because of your beliefs. Tell me what belief/ religion is most accurate? Atheism is not even in the question because you do not even have a belief, you just believe everything was just there. So, tell me when you die and are in the grave. How will you feel? What will happen? If you have no answer then having an answer is more accurate and logical. Especially in a ''religion'' more like a way of life in my perspective that has a scripture, The Qur'an which contains no errors, contradiction, and there is nothing like it.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Exactly. If you told me that it was created by Atius Tirawa, i would obviously say it is false. He is from a folk tale. Besides he has human qualities and does things a God would not do.
And God is exempt from those same considerations because...?
 

Jabar

“Strive always to excel in virtue and truth.”
And God is exempt from those same considerations because...?
Because it is illogical. Why would a God have human qualities, it kinda makes you believe it is just man-made especially in that scenario. There is no god but Allah. I can just tell, something in my instincts just give me a feeling of the truth.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Now lets use accuracy, because it is important. I will use accuracy because of your beliefs. Tell me what belief/ religion is most accurate? Atheism is not even in the question because you do not even have a belief, you just believe everything was just there. So, tell me when you die and are in the grave. How will you feel? What will happen? If you have no answer then having an answer is more accurate and logical. Especially in a ''religion'' more like a way of life in my perspective that has a scripture, The Qur'an which contains no errors, contradiction, and there is nothing like it.

You're still talking. I'll hope you're also listening. I don't mean that to sound arrogant, just that I'm spending time on this to discuss it with you, not be monologued at.

That said...
I have never told you 'things were just there'. Rather, I would say 'I don't know'. I have no issue admitting my own ignorance.

The grave? How did you feel before conception? Much the same.

And sorry...but 'having an answer' is NOT more logical than not having an answer. This is particularly true of more dogmatic, specific and detailed beliefs. If i want 'an answer', I'll go with panentheism or deism.

I am about to make a statement with no errors, and no contradictions...

'The seat I am sitting on is black.'

As a bonus, I made it difficult to falsify. Makes it more 'holy scripturish' that way.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Because it is illogical. Why would a God have human qualities, it kinda makes you believe it is just man-made especially in that scenario. There is no god but Allah. I can just tell, something in my instincts just give me a feeling of the truth.
I don't think you would lie to us, least of us when you have no reason to, so I must assume that you do indeed believe that Allah exists while, say, Shiva does not. That is not really in dispute.

However, there is no logical reason I can see why Allah's reality is established. It is no more logical than any other deity's. Your analysis above is correct.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
because ....He is God.
Yeah. That is indeed the most sincere answer. And the most convincing, I suppose, and far as I can tell the correct one.

Which is why people should not be expected to believe in His existence unless they feel like it.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I just want to say it's a waste of time trying to figure it out, some things are beyond our comprehension or understanding. What you mean materialized? is this nStar Trek? Also, perception can stand against Truth and Truth is absolute! There can only be 1 Truth. "The Truth is the Truth, whether you believe it or not"!

Yeah so...the premise of an object or machine materializing wasn't mine. I was responding to someone else. You can join that discussion or not, but please...only if you have some value to add. I'm not looking for monologues.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Good answer!

But I’m still not convinced you are an atheist :)
Tell you what...let's both agree I'm as spiritual as concrete dust. That works from both a panentheist AND atheist viewpoint.

Not philosophically - physically! Nothing touches anything. To explain it simply: what you feel is your energy intertwining with the keyboard’s energy. You are not really touching. Ask any physicist you want to confirm and explain it to you in more detail :)

No clue what you mean. I'll try and check it out but it doesnt sound that interesting to me. Solipsism suggests not even my energy is entwining, so ultimately we end up back a subjectivity, perhaps.


Now consider this: the same thing happens with everything... including your own body. In and out. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it?



;)

It makes me think, yes. But I've actually spent more time recently in my life considering less dogmatic religious views.

To date that hasn't made me theistic but I find the beliefs interesting.
Why only “out there”? Why not next to you too? Why not within you also? You are literally inhaling the universe... Ever thought about that?

Your point is well made. But yes, actually. At the risk of my atheist credentials, I can even give a specific example some might describe as spiritual. I lived for a year in a very, very, very remote location. No electricity. A few of us took a small boat out, sitting in single file. We motored out for quite a while, and then just killed the engines.

There seemed more stars in the sky than space between them, and they stretched quite literally from horizon to horizon. But even more remarkably, there were some sort of tiny glowing sea creatures all around. No idea what they were. But it was like being completely surrounded by the stars. Once the engines were silent, no-one spoke. Some sort of mutual unspoken agreement to enjoy the moment.

So...yes. I have thought about it.
I know it is impossible for anyone to consider all view points of the divine, old and new, so I’m usually referring to the most common/well known ones and the ones that have been around for several decades and have been believed by notable many.

So, I’ll agree with Johnnie’s points as “basics”:



Do we agree on these?

Hmm...no. Not that I have any issue if that's your list. But I wouldn't see something like 'energy' or 'matter' as God.
I suspect, for me, God needs sentience, ultimately.

It’s a theistic philosophy. Many consider Buddhism to be a theistic philosophy too, instead of a religion. Either way, they both fall under the category of “views on god”.

Yep. But given the lack of dogma, it's hard for me to hate on it, and quite possible for me to accept it as a philosophical position, is more my meaning. Deism, too, in a way...

And I work with a lot of multilingual people. Colour me jealous...lol

Sidenote, I have always loved reading about classical Greece (so to speak) including Greek myth. Especially when I was a kid I read huge amounts on those topics.
 
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