Are you sure you are an Atheist?

[Marsh]

Why do we always involve the supernatural? There is no such thing as “supernatural”. Everything is just natural. God/s is no exemption...

Well, I do agree that there is probably no such thing as the supernatural, unless of course the gods do exist. Christians too, do not care for the notion that their belief system revolves around the supernatural, but it does. As a Pantheist I am guessing that you believe God is in everything, but you don't really believe in a personal God? I am assuming this deity created the universe? I'm sorry if you already answered these questions and I missed the answers.

It/they can’t be. It’s illogical to be..

I understand you perceive God as natural, just as I once understood ghosts to be natural; but if God is part of the natural world is he still a conscious being, and where would that consciousness reside? Does he have any affect upon the world? Also, what do you mean by "It/they can’t be. It’s illogical to be.."

 

[lewisnotmiller]

To give people the message. Muhammad is the final prophet because he spread the message best, there are nobody coming after him. Allah is All-Knowing, he knows technology will become better on Earth, so a prophet would not be needed whilst you have the last revelation the Qur'an and technology in front of you. Yes, i believe the Qur'an is truth as it is divine.

Let me clarify what you mean;

There were multiple prophets, but the prophets who came before Muhammed were not able to effectively transmit Allah's message. They either misunderstood God, or they understood him but were in turn misunderstood. Is that right?
And so Allah sent another prophet, and declared him the final prophet, since he knew Muhammed would spread the true message.
Allah is all-knowing, so he knew before he gave his message to earlier prophets, such as Jesus, that the message would not be spread correctly.

Is that what you mean?

As for the second part of the equation (Islam in pre-Muhammed times) why, in your estimation, is there no mention of Islam in any documents anywhere on earth from those times? I can ignore, for now, the Quran being assembled post-Muhammed.

 

[Jabar]

Let me clarify what you mean;

There were multiple prophets, but the prophets who came before Muhammed were not able to effectively transmit Allah's message. They either misunderstood God, or they understood him but were in turn misunderstood. Is that right?
And so Allah sent another prophet, and declared him the final prophet, since he knew Muhammed would spread the true message.
Allah is all-knowing, so he knew before he gave his message to earlier prophets, such as Jesus, that the message would not be spread correctly.

Is that what you mean?

As for the second part of the equation (Islam in pre-Muhammed times) why, in your estimation, is there no mention of Islam in any documents anywhere on earth from those times? I can ignore, for now, the Quran being assembled post-Muhammed.

No, the prophets taught the right way. The people made misconceptions, the prophets never misunderstood God's word. Of course, Allah knew people would disbelieve. Btw, yes there are documents. I think you are talking about Jesus, which we believe was raised to heaven.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

No, the prophets taught the right way. The people made misconceptions, the prophets never misunderstood God's word.

Interesting. Why the abortive attempts?

Of course, Allah knew people would disbelieve. Btw, yes there are documents. I think you are talking about Jesus, which we believe was raised to heaven.

I'm not talking about Jesus. You suggested that Islam existed pre-Muhammad. I imagine what you mean is that submission to God existed pre-Muhammad, but it's not really clear from how you have worded things to this point.
In any case, if there are documents, would you be so kind as to point me to any? Perhaps that will at least clarify what you mean.

 

[Jabar]

Interesting. Why the abortive attempts?



I'm not talking about Jesus. You suggested that Islam existed pre-Muhammad. I imagine what you mean is that submission to God existed pre-Muhammad, but it's not really clear from how you have worded things to this point.
In any case, if there are documents, would you be so kind as to point me to any? Perhaps that will at least clarify what you mean.

Are you really trying to argue the existence of Muhammad? Anyhow, a document by the name Ashtiname of Muhammad, this was a open letter to Christians that declared their right to self-governance, and protection.

 

[Marsh]

Agnosticism was coined to mean NO KNOWLEDGE.. A gnosis... gnosis being knowledge.. about GOD.
So, an agnostic is someone who doesn't know or thinks that he cant know anything about a god.

And I would say that if we have NO KNOWLEDGE of something, we can't BELIEVE in it, so we are atheists, too.
There are degrees of atheism and agnosticism.. people are all over the map.

A LOT of people misconstrue agnostic to mean something like "sitting on the fence" or 50/50. but that's just a misuse.

I am a 7 on the Dawkin's Scale and I would argue that there are plenty of reasons to think any god does not exist. In my take on it an agnostic is someone for whom it cannot be known whether God exists. An agnostic is undecided; they are sitting on the fence. Dawkins did place agnostics at the 50/50 mark, but he also said that all belief exists on a sliding scale (that's in agreement with yourself) with some agnostics leaning toward theism and some toward atheism. However, I would argue that any person who is certain God does not exist is an atheist, not an agnostic (for the true agnostic there is insufficient knowledge to come to a decision).

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Are you really trying to argue the existence of Muhammad? Anyhow, a document by the name Ashtiname of Muhammad, this was a open letter to Christians that declared their right to self-governance, and protection.

You're missing my point entirely.
I am not trying to argue whether Muhammad existed or not. You stated that Islam existed pre-Muhammed. Before Muhammed.
What I am asking for is any evidence that this was the case, apart from the Quran, which was obviously written much later.

So, in short, contemporary documentation including anything about Islam from pre-Muhammad times.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I am a 7 on the Dawkin's Scale and I would argue that there are plenty of reasons to think any god does not exist. In my take on it an agnostic is someone for whom it cannot be known whether God exists. An agnostic is undecided; they are sitting on the fence. Dawkins did place agnostics at the 50/50 mark, but he also said that all belief exists on a sliding scale (that's in agreement with yourself) with some agnostics leaning toward theism and some toward atheism. However, I would argue that any person who is certain God does not exist is an atheist, not an agnostic (for the true agnostic there is insufficient knowledge to come to a decision).

Argue that if you wish. I tend to call myself an agnostic atheist, since I think ultimate certainty is unattainable.
We really are all over the map, as @Blastcat said.

 

[Thief]

Says the Qur'an, it is proof. Science is science not religion.

if you can't put the two together the conflict will last forever

gotta fit the puzzle pieces

 

[Jabar]

You're missing my point entirely.
I am not trying to argue whether Muhammad existed or not. You stated that Islam existed pre-Muhammed. Before Muhammed.
What I am asking for is any evidence that this was the case, apart from the Quran, which was obviously written much later.

So, in short, contemporary documentation including anything about Islam from pre-Muhammad times.

Brother, the Qur'an states it. I think you are confused, what islam are you talking about? Islam has evolved and changed. Before it is just belief in Allah as God and righteous deeds. Of course there are documents of Islam.

 

[Thief]

Qur'an has no errors, Bible is tampered with and contains many errors just as the other scriptures you mentioned.

really?

 

[Jabar]

if you can't put the two together the conflict will last forever

gotta fit the puzzle pieces

They do fit in terms of evidential information that is approved by science.

 

[Jabar]

really?

Yes, Qur'an has no errors.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Brother, the Qur'an states it. I think you are confused, what islam are you talking about? Islam has evolved and changed. Before it is just belief in Allah as God and righteous deeds. Of course there are documents of Islam.

*chuckles*

I am, indeed, confused. That is why I stated the following a little earlier;

You suggested that Islam existed pre-Muhammad. I imagine what you mean is that submission to God existed pre-Muhammad, but it's not really clear from how you have worded things to this point.

So it appears that this is now clear. Before Muhammed there was submission to God, but no Islamic religion, right? No mention of 'Islam' as a direct concept or religion, but rather the worship of God by various groups. Not Arabs, for the most part, but various other groups.

 

[Thief]

They do fit in terms of evidential information that is approved by science.

so science has approved your interpretation of your scripture?

 

[Jabar]

*chuckles*

I am, indeed, confused. That is why I stated the following a little earlier;


So it appears that this is now clear. Before Muhammed there was submission to God, but no Islamic religion, right? No mention of 'Islam' as a direct concept or religion, but rather the worship of God by various groups. Not Arabs, for the most part, but various other groups.

Brother, that was Islam. Islam is that belief at the time period.

 

[Jabar]

so science has approved your interpretation of your scripture?

No the true meaning of the scripture.

 

[Thief]

I hope you realize that such a claim is worth exactly as much as anyone decides to lend to it in importance... and nothing more.

and your persistent denial is one stance ....less

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Brother, that was Islam. Islam is that belief at the time period.

You're going to have to help me here.
Islam is both a way of describing a particular and specific religion, and a more general word talking about submission to God, correct?

The particular and specific religion, as encapsulated in the Quran, did not exist pre-Muhammed.
People submitting to God did, correct?

 

[Thief]

Then it is with those theists trying to use said material stuff you rely need to be preaching to....

and material 'stuff' was created....by God
and you have to leave the material argument the moment you go theological