Are you with UN "global" law prohibition the provocation "mock/insult/lie", about all religions ?

[Badran]

***Mod post***

Please refrain from deviating off-topic either by pursuing off-topic tangents or by discussing issues that do not belong on the open forum.

Private messages and/or references to such are in-appropriate material to be addressed here and further references or discussion of such will be treated as rule 1 violations.​

 

[Draka]

i n ow here for prove muslim women with soft beat. else ask draka reopen old thread.

but my chellege for you pending, are you will be with soft beat if proven?

You obviously have me confused with someone else.

Now, can we drop this disgusting topic and get back on the correct subject?

 

[Kerr]

This is getting rediculous. If we have to have a debate about "soft beating", we should start a new thread. But I really dont think its a good idea, because it wouldnt do any good. The people who are against it will not change their opinion about something they consider extremely appalling. And the ones who support it wont consider alternate interpretations of scripture then the one they believe in. Maybe I am cynical, it just seems that way from watching this debate.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I brought up the wife-beating debate because it was and still is offensive to the majority of women.

I felt it was relevant given that if something was insulting to an entire demographic that the argument was for the U.N. to ban it.

I'm still waiting for the answer as to why by the supporters of a law prohibiting provocation they would still support rhetoric and mandates that are insulting to women.

 

[Kerr]

I brought up the wife-beating debate because it was and still is offensive to the majority of women.

I felt it was relevant given that if something was insulting to an entire demographic that the argument was for the U.N. to ban it.

I'm still waiting for the answer as to why by the supporters of a law prohibiting provocation they would still support rhetoric and mandates that are insulting to women.

That part is on topic and they are absolutely very good points. Have been trying to do that as well. Was thinking about those who started to debate wife-beating itself rather then in relation to the topic when I wrote the post above yours.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

That part is on topic and they are absolutely very good points. Have been trying to do that as well. Was thinking about those who started to debate wife-beating itself rather then in relation to the topic when I wrote the post above yours.

I see that.

 

[idav]

I'm still waiting for the answer as to why by the supporters of a law prohibiting provocation they would still support rhetoric and mandates that are insulting to women.

*coughs choking* Cause Muhammad wasn't a woman? *finishes choking*

 

[beenie]

*coughs choking* Cause Muhammad wasn't a woman? *finishes choking*

Muhammad never condoned "soft beating", nor did he "soft beat" his wives.

Again, back on topic. Mocking and insulting of religion wouldn't even be an issue if people put their emotions aside and didn't let it bother them. It's their overreaction that highlights the insult in the first place. Draw your damn cartoon and make your stupid movie. I'm grown up enough to ignore it and not give the attention they're seeking in the first place.

Banning it is impossible and giving it way more attention than it deserves.

 

[idav]

Muhammad never condoned "soft beating", nor did he "soft beat" his wives.

Again, back on topic. Mocking and insulting of religion wouldn't even be an issue if people put their emotions aside and didn't let it bother them. It's their overreaction that highlights the insult in the first place. Draw your damn cartoon and make your stupid movie. I'm grown up enough to ignore it and not give the attention they're seeking in the first place.

Banning it is impossible and giving it way more attention than it deserves.

My answer wasn't about soft beating or anything. It is a statement about not being able to mock muhammed while women aren't exactly put on pedestals. If people defended women like some defend their prophet it would be a bit different.

 

[Kerr]

Muhammad never condoned "soft beating", nor did he "soft beat" his wives.

Again, back on topic. Mocking and insulting of religion wouldn't even be an issue if people put their emotions aside and didn't let it bother them. It's their overreaction that highlights the insult in the first place. Draw your damn cartoon and make your stupid movie. I'm grown up enough to ignore it and not give the attention they're seeking in the first place.

Banning it is impossible and giving it way more attention than it deserves.

And there are also many people in the west who thinks drawing cartoons and making movies just to upset people is very childish.

 

[apophenia]

Let's get right down to the truth here. How many of the outraged muslims even saw the film ?

Answer - probably less than a fraction of 1%.

So - why don't we stop this pussyfooting and discuss what the real issue is ?

Answer - because that would be too 'offensive' and challenging.

 

[beenie]

My answer wasn't about soft beating or anything. It is a statement about not being able to mock muhammed while women aren't exactly put on pedestals. If people defended women like some defend their prophet it would be a bit different.

Sorry, I misunderstood. My point still stands in general though, and I wish people defended women the same way the defend the prophet as well. I won't hold my breath though.

Let's get right down to the truth here. How many of the outraged muslims even saw the film ?

Answer - probably less than a fraction of 1%.

So - why don't we stop this pussyfooting and discuss what the real issue is ?

Answer - because that would be too 'offensive' and challenging.

I'm up for the challenge; let's discuss.

 

[apophenia]

I'm up for the challenge; let's discuss.

Go for it.

Why do you think there were riots and murders about a film which had not been seen ?

Give me an idea of what you think was the mental set and cognition involved.

Does it indicate to you not only a willingness, but an enthusiasm, to riot against the west and even commit murders, on any pretext ?

( I will be away from the keyboard for some hours now ...)

 

[beenie]

Go for it.

Why do you think there were riots and murders about a film which had not been seen ?

Although I could never get inside the minds of the psychopaths that rioted and murdered over the film, I can only assume that they did so because to them, insulting the Prophet is akin to insulting God. Therefore, according to their overprotection of the Prophet, they feel the need to defend him at any cost. Fighting in the "cause of Islam" trumps all common sense.

Give me an idea of what you think was the mental set and cognition involved.

In their eyes, they make perfect sense. Even hearing that there is an insult to the Prophet is worthy of taking serious action; it's seen as blasphemy and as an act of war against Islam.

Does it indicate to you not only a willingness, but an enthusiasm, to riot against the west and even commit murders, on any pretext ?

For them, possibly. Emotions and passion are quite difficult and strong pulls towards irrational behavior. We hear about the husband/boyfriend who goes completely nuts when another guy looks at his wife/girlfriend, and if he dare insult her... Or the protective dad who hears someone call his daughter a "****". We've seen these scenarios around the world, and well, we see some of the horrible results. These people hold their religious values even higher than their own family, so it's no surprise they lashed out so severely.

Overall, IMO the irrational response to the film/cartoon/whatever stems from a list of issues; some socio-economic, a heavy weight on indoctrination, and a whole bunch of people with far too much time on their hands. The mob mentality also plays a role. One or two people get upset and we don't hear about it; when they grow in number and start protesting, adrenaline increases, the anger follows, and a gross few will completely go beyond the point of normalcy and will act out in despicable ways.

I truly wish these people ignored the cartoon/movie and just let it die out; quite frankly, I think millions of people watched it just to know what the big deal was. I have yet to see one person (Muslim or not) say the movie was worth the 14 torturous minutes.

 

[apophenia]

Although I could never get inside the minds of the psychopaths that rioted and murdered over the film, I can only assume that they did so because to them, insulting the Prophet is akin to insulting God. Therefore, according to their overprotection of the Prophet, they feel the need to defend him at any cost. Fighting in the "cause of Islam" trumps all common sense.

In their eyes, they make perfect sense. Even hearing that there is an insult to the Prophet is worthy of taking serious action; it's seen as blasphemy and as an act of war against Islam.

I honestly think that this whole 'cause of Islam' business is not about religion ( in the spiritual sense) at all.

In my view, it is entirely about cultural identity, and I really don't believe it is 'love of God' or 'love of the Prophet' at all. Seriously, not at all. I think that is a huge rationalisation for cultural prejudice, and an outcome of fundamental brainwashing.

The more I read, see and understand, the clearer that becomes.

For them, possibly. Emotions and passion are quite difficult and strong pulls towards irrational behavior. We hear about the husband/boyfriend who goes completely nuts when another guy looks at his wife/girlfriend, and if he dare insult her... Or the protective dad who hears someone call his daughter a "****". We've seen these scenarios around the world, and well, we see some of the horrible results. These people hold their religious values even higher than their own family, so it's no surprise they lashed out so severely.

This is what I mean - the brainwash goes beyond actual religious faith, it is not 'spiritual' , it is Pavlovian. The muslim scholars and hadiths won't explain how it works - Milgram and Zimbardo's experiments would be a much more useful frame of reference.

Overall, IMO the irrational response to the film/cartoon/whatever stems from a list of issues; some socio-economic, a heavy weight on indoctrination, and a whole bunch of people with far too much time on their hands. The mob mentality also plays a role. One or two people get upset and we don't hear about it; when they grow in number and start protesting, adrenaline increases, the anger follows, and a gross few will completely go beyond the point of normalcy and will act out in despicable ways.

Absolutely. It is entirely about 'crowds and power' - Ellias Cannetti would be another reference point.

I am almost entirely over even discussing it nowadays, because there is no point trying to understand it from the point of view of 'religious tolerance' etc. It is a brainwash gone horribly wrong. That is why I have begun to state outright lately that Mohammed made the biggest mistake in human history, and created a monster which cannot be dealt with in a rational way.

I truly wish these people ignored the cartoon/movie and just let it die out; quite frankly, I think millions of people watched it just to know what the big deal was. I have yet to see one person (Muslim or not) say the movie was worth the 14 torturous minutes.

Like most westerners, I haven't even bothered watching it. Its contents are irrelevant.

What is relevant is that there are enough of these insanely dangerous and ignorant ( and I really mean that ) muslims to guarantee more and worse horrors, regardless of what moderate muslims might say or want.

I see no possible solution to any of this. There will be more and more bloodbaths and madness, and there is no way of controlling it.

I will probably stop posting here entirely soon, because I have reached the realisation that there is nothing to be gained from discussing this.

A hard rain is gonna fall.

Ugly **** is gonna happen.

That's that.

No way of stopping it, no worthwhile outcomes, a total catastrophe with no upside.

To be honest, because of this realisation, I have gone from being a supporter of muslims ( in the sense of hating what American foreign policy has done, and protesting the horror of US military might being thrown around to dominate the world ) to being so averse to Islam that when I think of Mohammed I just feel sick.

That is the truth. So there is probably no point in even responding to my posts, or in me making them although I realise that you are a decent person, and a muslim, it makes no difference.

It's all just a ******* horror show. I think ending my life would be better than living through what all this is inevitably leading to, while I can still do that in relative peace. I don't want to see what I now know is inevitable. It is going to be horrifically brutally ugly. We have only seen a glimpse so far ... and no-one wins.

I think this will be my last post on RF.

 

[idav]

It's all just a ******* horror show. I think ending my life would be better than living through what all this is inevitably leading to, while I can still do that in relative peace. I don't want to see what I now know is inevitable. It is going to be horrifically brutally ugly. We have only seen a glimpse so far ... and no-one wins.

I think this will be my last post on RF.

We've come too far to let the cultural stragglers have the last say. Their are enough people fighting that there is actually change for the better coming. Maybe my optimism but when I saw countries in the east actually making progress it gives me hope. People want change, people want the freedom the west claims to have and it is infectious. People all over the world have a right to be happy within the realm of reason.

 

[NIX]

I honestly think that this whole 'cause of Islam' business is not about religion ( in the spiritual sense) at all.

In my view, it is entirely about cultural identity, and I really don't believe it is 'love of God' or 'love of the Prophet' at all. Seriously, not at all. I think that is a huge rationalisation for cultural prejudice, and an outcome of fundamental brainwashing.

The more I read, see and understand, the clearer that becomes.

This is what I mean - the brainwash goes beyond actual religious faith, it is not 'spiritual' , it is Pavlovian. The muslim scholars and hadiths won't explain how it works - Milgram and Zimbardo's experiments would be a much more useful frame of reference.


Absolutely. It is entirely about 'crowds and power' - Ellias Cannetti would be another reference point.

I am almost entirely over even discussing it nowadays, because there is no point trying to understand it from the point of view of 'religious tolerance' etc. It is a brainwash gone horribly wrong. That is why I have begun to state outright lately that Mohammed made the biggest mistake in human history, and created a monster which cannot be dealt with in a rational way.

Like most westerners, I haven't even bothered watching it. Its contents are irrelevant.

What is relevant is that there are enough of these insanely dangerous and ignorant ( and I really mean that ) muslims to guarantee more and worse horrors, regardless of what moderate muslims might say or want.

I see no possible solution to any of this. There will be more and more bloodbaths and madness, and there is no way of controlling it.

I will probably stop posting here entirely soon, because I have reached the realisation that there is nothing to be gained from discussing this.

A hard rain is gonna fall.

Ugly **** is gonna happen.

That's that.

No way of stopping it, no worthwhile outcomes, a total catastrophe with no upside.

To be honest, because of this realisation, I have gone from being a supporter of muslims ( in the sense of hating what American foreign policy has done, and protesting the horror of US military might being thrown around to dominate the world ) to being so averse to Islam that when I think of Mohammed I just feel sick.

That is the truth. So there is probably no point in even responding to my posts, or in me making them although I realise that you are a decent person, and a muslim, it makes no difference.

It's all just a ******* horror show. I think ending my life would be better than living through what all this is inevitably leading to, while I can still do that in relative peace. I don't want to see what I now know is inevitable. It is going to be horrifically brutally ugly. We have only seen a glimpse so far ... and no-one wins.

I think this will be my last post on RF.

Your two most wonderful posts here were lost in the Chaos.
Ahhh. To Eris human.

From the Principia Discordia- (My Holy Book)- An Erisian Hymn:

 

[beenie]

I honestly think that this whole 'cause of Islam' business is not about religion ( in the spiritual sense) at all.

In my view, it is entirely about cultural identity, and I really don't believe it is 'love of God' or 'love of the Prophet' at all. Seriously, not at all. I think that is a huge rationalisation for cultural prejudice, and an outcome of fundamental brainwashing.

The more I read, see and understand, the clearer that becomes.

This is what I mean - the brainwash goes beyond actual religious faith, it is not 'spiritual' , it is Pavlovian. The muslim scholars and hadiths won't explain how it works - Milgram and Zimbardo's experiments would be a much more useful frame of reference.


Absolutely. It is entirely about 'crowds and power' - Ellias Cannetti would be another reference point.

I am almost entirely over even discussing it nowadays, because there is no point trying to understand it from the point of view of 'religious tolerance' etc. It is a brainwash gone horribly wrong. That is why I have begun to state outright lately that Mohammed made the biggest mistake in human history, and created a monster which cannot be dealt with in a rational way.

Like most westerners, I haven't even bothered watching it. Its contents are irrelevant.

What is relevant is that there are enough of these insanely dangerous and ignorant ( and I really mean that ) muslims to guarantee more and worse horrors, regardless of what moderate muslims might say or want.

I see no possible solution to any of this. There will be more and more bloodbaths and madness, and there is no way of controlling it.

I will probably stop posting here entirely soon, because I have reached the realisation that there is nothing to be gained from discussing this.

A hard rain is gonna fall.

Ugly **** is gonna happen.

That's that.

No way of stopping it, no worthwhile outcomes, a total catastrophe with no upside.

To be honest, because of this realisation, I have gone from being a supporter of muslims ( in the sense of hating what American foreign policy has done, and protesting the horror of US military might being thrown around to dominate the world ) to being so averse to Islam that when I think of Mohammed I just feel sick.

That is the truth. So there is probably no point in even responding to my posts, or in me making them although I realise that you are a decent person, and a muslim, it makes no difference.

It's all just a ******* horror show. I think ending my life would be better than living through what all this is inevitably leading to, while I can still do that in relative peace. I don't want to see what I now know is inevitable. It is going to be horrifically brutally ugly. We have only seen a glimpse so far ... and no-one wins.

I think this will be my last post on RF.

What kind of ridiculous attitude is this? Out of the 1.5 BILLION Muslims on earth, you've categorically clumped them all into one xenophobic box you created. You asked me to try and explain why they reacted the way they did, and I did just that. By this post, you are including my family, friends, and even me into this horrible group, and then backing out. I'm sorry, I won't have that.

I agree with you that it's a cultural mentality; I never claimed it wasn't. For these people, however, they see no line between culture and religion. That doesn't reflect to all Muslims though, and I think you know that too. I for one find the whole thing beyond stupid, and their intolerance is paramount. I haven't once asked anyone to understand or support their actions; please read my posts here and you'll see. Your anger, my friend, is aimed at the wrong person. You asked me to do this, and I did. Did you see me agreeing with one iota of it? Me neither.

I completely concur that heavy indoctrination by mullahs and political leaders have made this monstrous mess, and lack of education had made it a guarantee for disaster. There are people trying to help though, and as far as my community is concerned, we are speaking out and stepping out to be heard about the wrong behavior of these savages. Too bad you're not going to be open minded enough to witness it. That's a shame.

Anyway, it's a bummer you decided to bow out after facing a challenge; I was hoping for a decent dialogue between a few neat people on RF. If you change your mind, you know where to find me.

 

[apophenia]

This was a PM to ssainhu, but I realised it is a more appropriate and honest last post -

I am sorry to have upset you.

My post did say that 'I can see that you are a decent person and a muslim', so no, I don't put 1.5 billion people in a xenophobic basket.

I am just as distressed ( in fact more so) about the effect of free market capitalism/consumerism on the human psyche, and even worse the catastrophic effects of that system on the entire ecosystem. That doesn't mean I hate all consumers. But I do think any of them who don't realise the damage they are doing are either in denial or plain stupid, or just hopelessly selfish (or maybe all three).

Humans make horrible, huge mistakes. Islam and rampant consumerism are just two of many. And people know that desperately bad mistakes have been made, and at least down deep realise that we have all but destroyed our potential for happiness, and on the way are causing mass extinctions which will lead to total ecological collapse, but they seem incapable of making the changes required.

And they can see that their ideas of God and politics/economics are completely failing them, in fact are making things worse.

Realising that we are persisting in error makes people crazy and vindictive, and self-loathing, and this self-loathing is projected outward onto 'the other'.

I 'backed out' because I am overwhelmed by despair about all this and sick in the heart and seriously over discussing it.

Goodbye and good luck.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I 'backed out' because I am overwhelmed by despair about all this and sick in the heart and seriously over discussing it.

I think that if we take the long view of human history, things look pretty positive. Still dicey, but I'd rather live in modern Western civilization than most any society of one or two thousand years ago.

So I feel nervous for the future of humanity but not really despair.

Just my two cents.