Are you with UN "global" law prohibition the provocation "mock/insult/lie", about all religions ?

[Godobeyer]

Do you know the word "parahrase"?

It means, "To re-word someone's statement but without changing the meaning of that statement."

People here are paraphrasing your statements. It's a necessary part of debate. They think they are accurately re-stating your beliefs, but I am not sure that is true. I think they are not understanding you very well.

I think that if they did understand you, they would still disagree with you very strongly, but I don't think they are understanding you very well.

no ,it's not easy to said to some "that someone other told you 'you are bad or you are traitor " .
i never said or considerate her as bad muslim or traitor .

 

[Godobeyer]

I think that if Godobeyer were a native English speaker, he would mostly agree with your paraphrases above. The one where I'm not sure you got it right was when he was trying to discuss the suggestion of you being made judge over 'insult/lies'.

But maybe you and the others got that one right, too. Who knows. I've been an ESL teacher, so I could be overly-sensitive to the meaning troubles which plague non-native speakers. I've often seen Americans assume that they understood my students when I knew that they actually didn't understand.

But everyone in this thread seems to be having fun, and I never like to interfere with fun, so.... carry on.

No i will never agree with them , in that interpretation of Quran of that verse .
because they had no translation or official interpratation of Quran support them , for me they had wrong interpretation of Quran , which totaly disagree with "commun" islamic teaching and law. .

most of the muslims belief in the same interpretation which against their interpretation .
Quran 4-34/35 had one official meaning with diferent interpretation and translation , and they disagree with it .

i repeat , please notice ,they had NO official interpratation or translation of Quran support their "beliefs".

 

[Godobeyer]

Even if barbaric notions are clearly expressed in the quran and hadiths, non-muslims (and more-modern muslims) are still free to despise them, and to express their disgust.

it's not about modern or old Islam teaching , there is one Quran and there is COMMUN interpretation and translation .

i am with official " commun" translation and interpertation of Quran .
they had NO commun translation or interpretation support their view from the Quran or Hadith or tafsir .

that's why i am considerate my self "the majority" .

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

i repeat , please notice ,they had NO official interpratation or translation of Quran support their "beliefs".

OK. But I think that 'official interpretations' are necessarily wrong interpretations.

I think that only individual interpretations can be right. It means that the person truly cares enough about God to decide for himself what God means by some verse from the Quran.

But blindly following the 'officlal' interpretation? No, that doesn't seem like a serious follower of Islam.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[beenie]

disagree as you want , i have no problem with that , notice that you did not gave a link to translation of Quran support what you belief!!!
why you didnot gave ? because there is NO official translation of Quran "commun translation" support your claim

Godobeyer, Ambiguousguy thought perhaps I was misunderstanding your opinions, and I simply posted what I understand you to be saying; I'm not arguing against your point, just saying I disagree with it. That's no surprise whatsoever.

OK. But I think that 'official interpretations' are necessarily wrong interpretations.

I think that only individual interpretations can be right. It means that the person truly cares enough about God to decide for himself what God means by some verse from the Quran.

But blindly following the 'officlal' interpretation? No, that doesn't seem like a serious follower of Islam.

Just my opinion, of course.

I agree with this. God gave us brains to interpret things as we see them. I'm not going to argue the wife-beating issue anymore, because we all know where you stand and where I stand on it.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

I'm not going to argue the wife-beating issue anymore, because we all know where you stand and where I stand on it.

I wouldn't think of beating my wife. She cooks the food around here. Plus, I sometimes go to sleep with her in the same room, and she keeps a baseball bat under the mattress.

No, I've learned that it's best to always smile politely at her and try not to turn my back when she's mad.

 

[Godobeyer]

OK. But I think that 'official interpretations' are necessarily wrong interpretations.

I think that only individual interpretations can be right. It means that the person truly cares enough about God to decide for himself what God means by some verse from the Quran.

But blindly following the 'officlal' interpretation? No, that doesn't seem like a serious follower of Islam.

Just my opinion, of course.

brother A G , i am arabic native ,which mean i knew the meaning in Arabic language about that verse of Quran ,99 % of the translations (other languges ) of Quran are corspend what i understand in Arabic .

the individual intrepretation is mean individilual religions , islam is not individual religion , it's commun religion , all the muslims believe in Quran said ,93% majority of the muslims believe in Hadith said too .

individaul intrepretation is almost wrong , because it's base in personal desires and wishes , ONLY if it's correspond what God said .

let's suppose that a muslim individual said ," there is no one God "
is he muslim ? is the islam teach there is no one GOD ?

ok a muslims said there is no "childen of isreal " , or "Hell or Heaven "in Quran , is this could be correct ?

 

[Looncall]

brother A G , i am arabic native ,which mean i knew the meaning in Arabic language about that verse of Quran ,99 % of the translations (other languges ) of Quran are corspend what i understand in Arabic .

the individual intrepretation is mean individilual religions , islam is not individual religion , it's commun religion , all the muslims believe in Quran said ,93% majority of the muslims believe in Hadith said too .

individaul intrepretation is almost wrong , because it's base in personal desires and wishes , ONLY if it's correspond what God said .

let's suppose that a muslim individual said ," there is no one God "
is he muslim ? is the islam teach there is no one GOD ?

ok a muslims said there is no "childen of isreal " , or "Hell or Heaven "in Quran , is this could be correct ?

You have expressed what I detest most about islam: the intellectual suicide it demands. Instead of thinking things out themselves, muslims are reduced to rooting around in some old book. How sad.

 

[Kerr]

brother A G , i am arabic native ,which mean i knew the meaning in Arabic language about that verse of Quran ,99 % of the translations (other languges ) of Quran are corspend what i understand in Arabic .

the individual intrepretation is mean individilual religions , islam is not individual religion , it's commun religion , all the muslims believe in Quran said ,93% majority of the muslims believe in Hadith said too .

individaul intrepretation is almost wrong , because it's base in personal desires and wishes , ONLY if it's correspond what God said .

let's suppose that a muslim individual said ," there is no one God "
is he muslim ? is the islam teach there is no one GOD ?

ok a muslims said there is no "childen of isreal " , or "Hell or Heaven "in Quran , is this could be correct ?

Unfortunately you cannot escape individual interpretation, because thats the way humans process information. You, me and everyone does it. That this site exists is proof of that .

 

[LuisDantas]

the individual intrepretation is mean individilual religions , islam is not individual religion , it's commun religion , all the muslims believe in Quran said ,93% majority of the muslims believe in Hadith said too .

individaul intrepretation is almost wrong , because it's base in personal desires and wishes , ONLY if it's correspond what God said.

That might not be an issue if it turned out that Muslims find no need for interpretation at all, or if some sort of spontaneous and harmonious agreement rose out naturally from simply reading the Quran.

If I dare say so, that would also be a major, very significant evidence for the Holy nature of the Quran itself and of Islam.

However, things simply do not happen that way. For better or worse, the challenge of interpreting the Quran in a proper and constructive way is a significant one. And since the Quran is meant for humans and not only for God himself, it is also a challenge that Muslims must accept. Avoiding it is not really an option.

And since it turns out that (according to Muslim belief) it was God who decided to give you both the Quran and the minds to interpret them, it seems to me that it follows that you should embrace the opportunity to exercise your critical thinking and interpretation capability. They are, after all, the tools that you were given in order to fulfill your religious duty.

I assume that you disagree. I will be pleased if you decide to tell me how exactly.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

individaul intrepretation is almost wrong , because it's base in personal desires and wishes , ONLY if it's correspond what God said.

let's suppose that a muslim individual said ," there is no one God "
is he muslim ? is the islam teach there is no one GOD ?

ok a muslims said there is no "childen of isreal " , or "Hell or Heaven "in Quran , is this could be correct ?

In Western society, every person is free to decide for himself 1) whether or not the Bible is actually the Word of God and 2) what the Bible means.

So we have thousands of different Christian churches, and we have millions of different opinions about what the Bible means. We also have millions of people who don't accept the Bible or any other GodBook.

It is a better society, in my opinion, than a society in which most everyone believes the same thing. It's one important reason why we are so powerful. We can argue with each other about what is true. We can come up with new ideas. No one can force us to believe the same way as the majority believes.

I think that when 95% of the people in a country believe the same thing about God... then those people are not free to think about God. Their minds are being controlled by the society.

Just my opinion.

 

[McBell]

the individual intrepretation is mean individilual religions , islam is not individual religion , it's commun religion , all the muslims believe in Quran said ,93% majority of the muslims believe in Hadith said too .

individaul intrepretation is almost wrong , because it's base in personal desires and wishes , ONLY if it's correspond what God said .

The only way you can support this claim is by using the No true Scotsman fallacy.
Which does not actually support the claim.

It is easy enough to show that your above quoted claim is simply not true, all one has to do is ask how many Hadith are there....

 

[Godobeyer]

You have expressed what I detest most about islam: the intellectual suicide it demands. Instead of thinking things out themselves, muslims are reduced to rooting around in some old book. How sad.

that when islam becomes "individaul ", see extrem intrepretation (individual) .

the extremism is found in every religion .

 

[LuisDantas]

that when islam becomes "individaul ", see extrem intrepretation (individual) .

the extremism is found in every religion .

If I understood you correctly, you are saying that religious extremism is a result of excessive freedom at interpreting the Quran. Is that what you meant to say?

If so, then I must disagree. While there are downsides in allowing people to have their own understandings of the correct and/or applicable meanings of scripture (or rather, in allowing them to express and debate the matter; divergent interpretations are not really avoidable), the positive consequences far outweight the negative.

Of course, I can't very well expect Islamic communities to be happy about divergence; I am told that "Islam" is Arabic for "devotion" or "submission (to God's Will)". One would expect Muslims to be generally well-adapted to dealing with a central authority and a lifestyle where obedience to proper rules is a high priority. And there is no doubt that divergence and debate can be very frustrating indeed.

That said, there is little reason to believe that Muslim communities are generally needing more obedience and less effort at interpretation and understanding. If nothing else, personal understanding is the path for better, more enlightened, more engaged and more adaptable cooperation with others. Simple obedience is a poor substitute to actual engaged cooperation.

So I ask: which kind of extremist are you warning us against? How is it recognized? What do you recommend to counter it?

 

[Godobeyer]

ssainhu

i just have clarification for your post , for that i back to it again .

*No one should mock or make fun of another religion, either through words, cartoons, movies, etc. in such a way that can provoke/insult others. There should be a protective law for all religions to be protected and not mocked/insulted.*

why not ? is this best way to creat respect way between the religions and nations ?

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have different beliefs, and are therefore "strangers" to each other.

for my opinion the abrahimic religions are closest religions to each other in the world , they are match some views in some issues and had different views in other issues

for my opinion ,yes every religion is strange/differ to the other religions .

1) Men are the leaders and protectors of women in their homes and in public;
2) Women need the protection of men, and therefore need to ask permission to leave the house;
3) If a wife is misbehaving, first talk to her, then separate beds from her, then if she doesn't "obey", then you can softly beat her. If she then cooperates, then take her back; if not, divorce her.
4) Men and women both deserve respect, but have different (traditional) roles; man works, woman cares for the house and children.
5) The West exploits women through sexualizing them via porn movies and lax rules about interacting with men.

If I have this wrong, then I apologize, but I think I understand him quite well.

I happen to disagree with him, but I do understand him.

there is no apologize ,you are right , you totaly understand me .

just for clarify more the situation :

for your points 1) and 2) and 3) : that's the Quran said in that verse
, and it's supported by many hadith and all ancient scholars like (ibn Kathir , tabari ...etc ) , NOT ME

for 4) and 5)
are my opinins , NOT Quran or Hadith. ok ?
it's traditional that the man who take the reponsibilty to go out to work , and the woman stay home , but nowdays, here in Algeria are huge number of woman are work , especialy in medicin and education or adminstration .

I am not against the work of the woman , but in specific jobs , like education for exemple .

for 5) yes ,West LET and ALLOWED exploiting the women in immorality issues , i wounder how you denied that , and you are already living in the west !!!!

and i believe the media in the west calling for immorality night and day .

Godobeyer, Ambiguousguy thought perhaps I was misunderstanding your opinions, and I simply posted what I understand you to be saying; I'm not arguing against your point, just saying I disagree with it. That's no surprise whatsoever.

Sister ssainhu ,can you please explain

"i'm not arguing against your point , just saying i disagree with it " ?

I am right when i said there is no official intrepretation support your opinion ,that's why you didn't post a link !!!?

i believe that you arguing me for helf of year or more, HOW you just disagree with it hhhhhhhh

and how about your accuse to me that i mock islam !!!(my interpretation of Quran mock islam )

and DS before said my view (interpetation) is offensive to muslims .

but the BIG problem is : how it's offensive to you ,but it's adopted by majority of the muslims, even in Egypt (his home ) . i believe this is BIG scandal (Joker) most of the people did not notice it hhhhhhhhhhh

this is the point: if in Egypt they misused this verse of Quran and abuse the wives their , should we against the valid interpretation of Quran and hadiths or against the misused of the Quran and hadith about that issue ?

of course we should to be against the misusing of Islam, NOT islam.

the funny thing sister, that you pick totaly agree the hadiths that warning the husband to avoid abuse his wife(that i agree too) , and same time you deny (disagree) the other valid hadiths that i adopted too !!!

if you agree with what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said or Quran said , you need to take it all , not to pick . (especialy if it's valid hadiths and credibal interpretation ) .

 

[Godobeyer]

AmbiguousGuy

I wouldn't think of beating my wife. She cooks the food around here. Plus, I sometimes go to sleep with her in the same room, and she keeps a baseball bat under the mattress.

No, I've learned that it's best to always smile politely at her and try not to turn my back when she's mad.

you need to fix your info about this issue ,
the woman in islam is not tool , or slave , it's full human being.
the husband and wife had different reponsibility and duties and rights .
(for the rights is about heritage "death" parents for exemple )

the muslim wife in Islam should obey her husband (not kind of slave ) as kind of respect ,because God and Prophet Muhammad (pbu) said too .

abusing the wife or any person is forbiden in islam .

in muslim world the wife is under protect and reponsibility of her husband (food , health , cloths ), not the inverse , and there is exception of course .

 

[beenie]

ssainhu

i just have clarification for your post , for that i back to it again .



why not ? is this best way to creat respect way between the religions and nations ?




for my opinion the abrahimic religions are closest religions to each other in the world , they are match some views in some issues and had different views in other issues

for my opinion ,yes every religion is strange/differ to the other religions .




there is no apologize ,you are right , you totaly understand me .

just for clarify more the situation :

for your points 1) and 2) and 3) : that's the Quran said in that verse
, and it's supported by many hadith and all ancient scholars like (ibn Kathir , tabari ...etc ) , NOT ME

for 4) and 5)
are my opinins , NOT Quran or Hadith. ok ?
it's traditional that the man who take the reponsibilty to go out to work , and the woman stay home , but nowdays, here in Algeria are huge number of woman are work , especialy in medicin and education or adminstration .

I am not against the work of the woman , but in specific jobs , like education for exemple .

for 5) yes ,West LET and ALLOWED exploiting the women in immorality issues , i wounder how you denied that , and you are already living in the west !!!!

and i believe the media in the west calling for immorality night and day .


Sister ssainhu ,can you please explain

"i'm not arguing against your point , just saying i disagree with it " ?

I am right when i said there is no official intrepretation support your opinion ,that's why you didn't post a link !!!?

i believe that you arguing me for helf of year or more, HOW you just disagree with it hhhhhhhh

and how about your accuse to me that i mock islam !!!(my interpretation of Quran mock islam )

and DS before said my view (interpetation) is offensive to muslims .

but the BIG problem is : how it's offensive to you ,but it's adopted by majority of the muslims, even in Egypt (his home ) . i believe this is BIG scandal (Joker) most of the people did not notice it hhhhhhhhhhh

this is the point: if in Egypt they misused this verse of Quran and abuse the wives their , should we against the valid interpretation of Quran and hadiths or against the misused of the Quran and hadith about that issue ?

of course we should to be against the misusing of Islam, NOT islam.

the funny thing sister, that you pick totaly agree the hadiths that warning the husband to avoid abuse his wife(that i agree too) , and same time you deny (disagree) the other valid hadiths that i adopted too !!!

if you agree with what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said or Quran said , you need to take it all , not to pick . (especialy if it's valid hadiths and credibal interpretation ) .

I provided links in the other monster-sized threads about soft-beating, and you conveniently ignored them, probably because you didn't like the other suggested meaning.

Why are you laughing? "hhhhhhh"

There's nothing remotely funny about spousal abuse.

 

[Draka]

the muslim wife in Islam should obey her husband (not kind of slave ) as kind of respect ,because God and Prophet Muhammad (pbu) said too .

If to obey another is a form of respect then the husband should obey the wife to show his respect for her as well. There are other ways to show respect other than blindly obeying the words of another. You obey your master, you obey your boss, you cooperate with your partner. Your spouse is supposed to be your partner in life.

abusing the wife or any person is forbiden in islam .

And yet time and time again you say that Islam promotes a husband striking his wife. Striking your spouse is abuse. The fact that this has been told to you time and again and you still refuse to see this is amazing.

in muslim world the wife is under protect and reponsibility of her husband (food , health , cloths ), not the inverse , and there is exception of course .

A woman is not a child. Children are to be protected and to be the responsibility of their parents. Since they are such they are also expected not to be abused by their parents. So why one would even have the warped mindset that a woman is like a child who must be protected and taken responsibility for and yet it is okay to strike her...I have still yet to figure out.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

A woman is not a child. Children are to be protected and to be the responsibility of their parents. Since they are such they are also expected not to be abused by their parents. So why one would even have the warped mindset that a woman is like a child who must be protected and taken responsibility for and yet it is okay to strike her...I have still yet to figure out.

It's a whole different cultural assumption.

Sometimes I think about the Pilgrims who first came to the US. They married their daughters away at around 12 years old, so I've heard. It was normal. We might call it warped today, but was it really warped in some transcendent sense?

All I can do is hope that the Western world is truly more advanced than some other parts of the world and that they'll take on our assumptions (about wives and husbands, for example) rather than that we will grow toward their outlooks.

 

[LuisDantas]

It's a whole different cultural assumption.

Sometimes I think about the Pilgrims who first came to the US. They married their daughters away at around 12 years old, so I've heard. It was normal. We might call it warped today, but was it really warped in some transcendent sense?

I don't know about transcendentality, or even marriage proper. But some behaviors are indeed inherently wrong, cultural differences not withstanding.

To use your example, no cultural tradition really entitles a man to force himself upon a woman (of any age, incidentally), regardless of any marital status. I have no idea whether those pilgrims recognized themselves as so entitled; I know many people do see sexual abuse as a minor thing to this day. That doesn't make it right, either.

All I can do is hope that the Western world is truly more advanced than some other parts of the world and that they'll take on our assumptions (about wives and husbands, for example) rather than that we will grow toward their outlooks.

That would be a vain, and at least arguably ethnocentric hope. But fortunately, assumptions are hardly needed on this matter.