Are you with UN "global" law prohibition the provocation "mock/insult/lie", about all religions ?

[McBell]

i don't care about what non-muslims though about Islam , because it's different belief (strange ) .

Bold faced lie.
This whole thread is nothing more than you caring what non-Muslims think of Islam to the point of making it a crime to say anything about Islam you dislike.

 

[NIX]

i don't care about what non-muslims though about Islam , because it's different belief (strange ) .

Bold faced lie.
This whole thread is nothing more than you caring what non-Muslims think of Islam to the point of making it a crime to say anything about Islam you dislike.

Exactly Mestemia! You beat me to the punch.

The irony of this statement really gave me a good chuckle.
If only it were actually true!

 

[Draka]

Exactly Mestemia! You beat me to the punch.

The irony of this statement really gave me a good chuckle.
If only it were actually true!

If it were true then this thread wouldn't even exist. We wouldn't be subjected to all the whining, moaning, complaining, and so on about what other people say about Islam AND all the crap about domestic abuse. Oh, if only it were actually true.

 

[Debater Slayer]

you would not believe me , if i told you i am not sure if you are muslim or atheist .

I'd actually believe that, sadly. It wouldn't be the first time you've pulled that card against someone who disagreed with your opinions.

it's not my pure opinion , it's valid hadiths and valid tafsir said , it's 100 % islamic view .

the valid hadiths adopted by 1,5 billions muslim around the world , which mean i am not the only ONE .

there is no background ,you always repeat this paragraphe (we let you speak free ) btw i have no problem to be ban from this forum , but i believe there would be someone come in futur and tells exactly what i said here .

there is no accusation , the muslim should deny the mockery or lie or insult to Islam
the west justify the mockery films agaisnt prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by the freedom of speech .

i don't care about what non-muslims though about Islam , because it's different belief (strange ) .

btw there is no remark like this in Quran or Hadith :

(please don't show this verse of Quran or hadith to non-mulims ,or explain it to them different way . )

so , if even all the translation on all the languages , and valid hadiths and valid tafsir supported what i said , that mean someone lie and try to fooled people here , certainly i am not the one .

1) The vast majority of people I know wouldn't try to justify wife-beating on a religious basis, and they are Muslims. Many of them are pretty devout, too.

2) What I mean by 'background' is that you seem to have an ax to grind with "the West" mainly due to different cultural backgrounds. Instead of acknowledging that differences have existed and will always exist between different cultures and accepting said differences, your posts contain constant demonization of anything that goes against your perceived standards and values... as if everyone has to live by the same standards that you do.

So if everything that is offensive and/or provocative were banned, I don't think we'd have seen any of those posts or had this debate in the first place.

3) Disagreeing with something doesn't mean that one necessarily thinks that something should be banned. People disagree all the time; going by your logic, either no one will be able to express their opinions or one set of opinions will be given special treatment over others, which would be unfair and inconsistent.

4) If you don't care about what non-Muslims think of Islam, then why did you start this thread to begin with? For someone who supposedly doesn't care about non-Muslims' opinions of Islam, your posts certainly seem to show too much concern about such.

5) Different viewpoints don't have to equate to lies. It's not a "my way or the highway" thing where those who don't agree with you are somehow liars or are inferior to you in any way. Not accepting differences seems to me as one major element of your posts in this thread — be it cultural differences between "the West" and your culture, different interpretations of Islamic texts and/or scriptures, or views of women that are different to yours (namely that they aren't inferior to men and that men don't have the right to physically abuse them).

As far as I'm concerned, labeling anyone who disagrees with your opinions as a liar could give a much more distorted image of your beliefs than most actual lies could, especially when said labeling is presented as something to be proud of or as 'loyalty' to your religion.

 

[gnostic]

3) Disagreeing with something doesn't mean that one necessarily thinks that something should be banned.

True.

Even though I didn't see the film, I know the content would be distasteful, crude and stereotyping, I see know reason why it should be banned.

The only circumstance that I see where films should be banned is child pornography.

 

[Godobeyer]

That's insulting to other religions, so you just broke your own rule.

excuse me ?

the religions are strangers to each other .(had different beliefs ) that what i meant .

 

[Godobeyer]

Draka

Let me wrap that up for you in a tidy little package with a neat little bow ssainhu. To him, your word as a Muslim now means diddly squat as you don't agree with him. You are a traitor to Islam by even entertaining the notion that non-Muslims can speak as they like and don't have to abide by Islamic instruction. You bad bad Muslim you. I think that about sums it up.

sorry i miss this (, traitor , bad bad muslim you ) .

this is evil mis-interpretation for what i said , i never said Ssainhu is bad muslim .why you mis-quote my reply and change it's meaning to the worst ?!!!

and i never considerate her as bad muslim or traitor, she is excellent muslim woman, and i respect her,we are muslims and we are just argue and disagree and we have different interpretation,and i have no problem with that .

to every one here (especialy Draka and DS ) ,please stop the rule (act) of speak instead of me , and make other explanation to what i said .

yes , i blamed her for vote against the law (provocation ) because, the muslims suppose with stop the provocation (lie or mock or insult) the others .(not allowed the provocation)

 

[Godobeyer]

You know what's funny? You obviously have no idea who you are talking to.

I am a military veteran. I use to be heavily into weight training and body building when I was younger. I use to arm wrestle male Marine buddies of mine for fun and won more often than I lost. This does not mean though, that I am not feminine. Strong does not mean "not feminine" and there are a LOT of men in the world that find a strong, powerful, headstrong woman VERY feminine and attractive.

thanks for share your experience life here .

as different culture and way of living let me , i would not appreciate to see my wife to training men , or work in amry , because this kind of work is drop in my jaleous boards ,for me it's not about trust or faithful ,ok ?

My husband works nights, so if someone were to break into my home in the middle of the night I would be the one to protect myself and my children.

honesly
is we suppose that some one break your home and your bubby is home , would you respect him if he tells "go protect us , i am affraid to face the theif" ?

If either of us wants to go anywhere (run an errand) we don't ask for permission, we just grab our things and tell the other one that we're heading out, where we are going, and about how long we will be gone. It's just called respect.

that's it .
the permission is just as you told me "heading out, where we are going"
and how about if he did not accept to go out, right now , late ok ? do you will accept his request to stay home ?

If either of us wants to make plans to go out with a friend or two we first check with the other to see if the other has any plans that conflict or if there would be any problem. This is what couples do. It's not just the women that are responsible to the men, but both are responsible to each other and show each other respect.

may have i ask you a question , do you have male friends and he had female friends ?

do you accept your husband be a friend to any woman (even bad women) ?

Now, as for all your number mumbo jumbo, again, spouting number of supposed adherents doesn't mean crap. You're not in their homes and in their minds to know that they actually adhere to the same interpretation you do and actually put that domineering crap into practice in their homes. So stop trying to speak for all those other Muslims out there and just stick to speaking for yourself.

i post a simple equation if you don't want to verify , that not my own problem , most the muslims accept the hadith and tafsir."that i adopt too"
which mean most of the muslims are with obedience of the wife "with limitation and rules " as Quran and Hadith said ...etc .

i live in pure islamic country and i visited many islamic countries and i witness what i talking about .
then please stop talking instead of me .

 

[Godobeyer]

AmbiguousGuy

I wonder if somebody (DS, Badran?) might receive godobeyer's messages in Arabic, translate them into English, and then post them here for him.

I really admire godobeyer for trying to debate in English but I have given up my efforts to understand what he's trying to say.

thanks my friend for your care , I remember the begging of Truthspeaker in this thread to translate a text link from Erabic to English.
and sorry again for my bad English , i wish i could sent my message very good in your languge , certianly you would understand my points very well .

 

[Godobeyer]

Debater Slayer

You have defended wife-beating many times over the course of your membership on the forum. You have told those who disagreed with certain viewpoints that you hold that they are going to Hell for it. You have accused Muslims who disagreed with you of having a weak faith and being "disloyal" to their religion.

Do you think that you should be banned from expressing such views because they are offensive to other people, Godobeyer? Your views are offensive to many women and men alike. They are offensive to many fellow Muslims and to many non-Muslims. They are also offensive to many people who have Muslim family and friends and don't want them to be lumped with megalomaniac domestic abusers and xenophobic people who perpetuate stereotypes against those of different cultural backgrounds.

I don't think you realize how much you benefit from being freely able to express your views, Godobeyer. Otherwise you wouldn't be arguing so much for restricting speech that you disagree with and slinging so many accusations when someone disagrees with you.

sorry for back to your post again , i missed some horrible claims .
don't speak instead of me , and tells lies about me .
I never said whom disagree with me , they would be in the hell .

yes i got nerves with sister Ssnaihu when she told me "there is no need to permission to wife " , i though she was sunni , i created new thread by a valid hadith , most of the women are in hell (because disobey of the husband ) .

i rebuilt my opinion in feedsite .end of story ,ok ?

against don't speak instead of me , and lie about me .
i never accused muslims whom disagreed with me having a weak faith

you blame and accuse me that i have take "vile" and "despicable" faith i told you i have references from Quran , and it's valid tafsir and valid hadith .
that's it.

on contrary, you and sister Ssnaihu didn't accept my interpertation and my faith view , not the inverse .

what view are offensive to muslims ? my islamic interpretation ?

damn, that's mean all the translation of Quran and hadith and huge number of tafsirs which you considerate them "wrong " are offensive to you ?

if your answser is "yes" ,
damn again,and again , that mean most the islamic sites(translation of Quran and Hadith and tafsir, islamic forums ) are anti-islam ,why , because islamic views (interpretations ) are offensive to each other .

 

[LuisDantas]

excuse me ?

the religions are strangers to each other .(had different beliefs ) that what i meant .

That is simply not an useful parameter. Everyone has different beliefs from everyone else to some degree.

More to the point, different beliefs coexist in the same world, often enough under the same roof. They are hardly "strangers", nor is there a benefit in seeking ignorance and estrangement from other faiths.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Debater Slayer

sorry for back to your post again , i missed some horrible claims .
don't speak instead of me , and tells lies about me .
I never said whom disagree with me , they would be in the hell .

yes i got nerves with sister Ssnaihu when she told me "there is no need to permission to wife " , i though she was sunni , i created new thread by a valid hadith , most of the women are in hell (because disobey of the husband ) .

i rebuilt my opinion in feedsite .end of story ,ok ?

against don't speak instead of me , and lie about me .
i never accused muslims whom disagreed with me having a weak faith

you blame and accuse me that i have take "vile" and "despicable" faith i told you i have references from Quran , and it's valid tafsir and valid hadith .
that's it.

on contrary, you and sister Ssnaihu didn't accept my interpertation and my faith view , not the inverse .

what view are offensive to muslims ? my islamic interpretation ?

I think you've just answered your own post, so there is no need for me to add much to this part. In fact, I believe the red part of your post above can even be used as an answer to the premise of this whole thread.

As for saying that those who disagree with you are going to Hell, I could provide some examples, but judging by the thread you referenced, it seems to me that you know what I'm talking about anyway.

damn, that's mean all the translation of Quran and hadith and huge number of tafsirs which you considerate them "wrong " are offensive to you ?

if your answser is "yes" ,
damn again,and again , that mean most the islamic sites(translation of Quran and Hadith and tafsir, islamic forums ) are anti-islam ,why , because islamic views (interpretations ) are offensive to each other .

Who said anything about all views agreeing with each other? Your set of views is only one among many. In my opinion, trying to dismiss all different viewpoints isn't going to accomplish much, if anything, except feeding intolerance and narrow-mindedness. I don't think any good would come out of that.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

thanks my friend for your care , I remember the begging of Truthspeaker in this thread to translate a text link from Erabic to English.
and sorry again for my bad English , i wish i could sent my message very good in your languge , certianly you would understand my points very well .

Do you know the word "parahrase"?

It means, "To re-word someone's statement but without changing the meaning of that statement."

People here are paraphrasing your statements. It's a necessary part of debate. They think they are accurately re-stating your beliefs, but I am not sure that is true. I think they are not understanding you very well.

I think that if they did understand you, they would still disagree with you very strongly, but I don't think they are understanding you very well.

 

[beenie]

Do you know the word "parahrase"?

It means, "To re-word someone's statement but without changing the meaning of that statement."

People here are paraphrasing your statements. It's a necessary part of debate. They think they are accurately re-stating your beliefs, but I am not sure that is true. I think they are not understanding you very well.

I think that if they did understand you, they would still disagree with you very strongly, but I don't think they are understanding you very well.

Here's what I understand Godobeyer is saying:

In terms of this thread (that has gone WAY off-track)

*No one should mock or make fun of another religion, either through words, cartoons, movies, etc. in such a way that can provoke/insult others. There should be a protective law for all religions to be protected and not mocked/insulted.*

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have different beliefs, and are therefore "strangers" to each other.

These are his views about the side-tracked topic of women in Islam:

1) Men are the leaders and protectors of women in their homes and in public;
2) Women need the protection of men, and therefore need to ask permission to leave the house;
3) If a wife is misbehaving, first talk to her, then separate beds from her, then if she doesn't "obey", then you can softly beat her. If she then cooperates, then take her back; if not, divorce her.
4) Men and women both deserve respect, but have different (traditional) roles; man works, woman cares for the house and children.
5) The West exploits women through sexualizing them via porn movies and lax rules about interacting with men.

If I have this wrong, then I apologize, but I think I understand him quite well.

I happen to disagree with him, but I do understand him.

 

[Freedomelf]

for me :
i voted , with law of prohibition , because i found that some people use the freedom of speech, for me the freedom of speech was used by some people to encourage the hate and racism ....etc

There are many types of speech that may be subverted to harm another being. Religions often harm their own people, by issuing manifestos that limit their freedoms. White supremacy groups often publish anti-minority sentiments. Even governments publish propaganda against other governments.

If we start banning this speech, that speech, and every little thing, we will have a society that restricts so many forms of speech as to become totalitarian. Anyone can use the law to attack others, and the LAWYERS are the only ones who will benefit, because they will constantly have an endless supply of business, while everyone else goes broke trying to defend themselves against frivolous lawsuits.

Religions, ironically, will use the ban to their own advantage, to try to force others to respect and even partake of their religion. Can you imagine all the cults shouting their beliefs in every mall, hurting everyone's ears and forcing everyone to listen to their dogma (and even be brainwashed by it). If a mall owner tells them to take their garbage elsewhere, they file a lawsuit saying that the mall owner engaged in hate speech and persecution? I can see this being wayyyyy abused, like everything else. A mall owner could go bankrupt in a hurry, trying to defend his property. And the list goes on.

Despite the fact that I am deeply religious (though not traditional), I voted against the ban.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Here's what I understand Godobeyer is saying:

In terms of this thread (that has gone WAY off-track)

*No one should mock or make fun of another religion, either through words, cartoons, movies, etc. in such a way that can provoke/insult others. There should be a protective law for all religions to be protected and not mocked/insulted.*

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have different beliefs, and are therefore "strangers" to each other.

These are his views about the side-tracked topic of women in Islam:

1) Men are the leaders and protectors of women in their homes and in public;
2) Women need the protection of men, and therefore need to ask permission to leave the house;
3) If a wife is misbehaving, first talk to her, then separate beds from her, then if she doesn't "obey", then you can softly beat her. If she then cooperates, then take her back; if not, divorce her.
4) Men and women both deserve respect, but have different (traditional) roles; man works, woman cares for the house and children.
5) The West exploits women through sexualizing them via porn movies and lax rules about interacting with men.

If I have this wrong, then I apologize, but I think I understand him quite well.

I happen to disagree with him, but I do understand him.

I think that if Godobeyer were a native English speaker, he would mostly agree with your paraphrases above. The one where I'm not sure you got it right was when he was trying to discuss the suggestion of you being made judge over 'insult/lies'.

But maybe you and the others got that one right, too. Who knows. I've been an ESL teacher, so I could be overly-sensitive to the meaning troubles which plague non-native speakers. I've often seen Americans assume that they understood my students when I knew that they actually didn't understand.

But everyone in this thread seems to be having fun, and I never like to interfere with fun, so.... carry on.

 

[beenie]

I think that if Godobeyer were a native English speaker, he would mostly agree with your paraphrases above. The one where I'm not sure you got it right was when he was trying to discuss the suggestion of you being made judge over 'insult/lies'.

I think that comment was made tongue-in-cheek, ie., a joke.

But maybe you and the others got that one right, too. Who knows. I've been an ESL teacher, so I could be overly-sensitive to the meaning troubles which plague non-native speakers. I've often seen Americans assume that they understood my students when I knew that they actually didn't understand.

Understood; I have plenty of family and friends from overseas, so I try very hard to keep my speech simple and I try not to use "colloquial" phrases that are unique to local speech.

But everyone in this thread seems to be having fun, and I never like to interfere with fun, so.... carry on.

 

[Nick1004]

I would agree with this law in the sense that I believe everyone should be able to practice their believes, no matter how crazy they may be. I mean, as long as they aren't hurting anyone it really should be fine. But, I also think that people should have to right to go against an established religion if they wanted to, so I wouldn't agree in that part.

 

[Godobeyer]

I think you've just answered your own post, so there is no need for me to add much to this part. In fact, I believe the red part of your post above can even be used as an answer to the premise of this whole thread.

As for saying that those who disagree with you are going to Hell, I could provide some examples, but judging by the thread you referenced, it seems to me that you know what I'm talking about anyway.

can you please STOP speak instead of me ?
i never said whom disagree with me will go to Hell . ok ?

Who said anything about all views agreeing with each other? Your set of views is only one among many. In my opinion, trying to dismiss all different viewpoints isn't going to accomplish much, if anything, except feeding intolerance and narrow-mindedness. I don't think any good would come out of that.

there is different views , you considerate my view (exterm) and vile and ....etc
but i am not sure if you considerate it islamic

carefull and NOTICE ,it's not simple to deny something exist in Quran .
if there most of translation and tafsirs said it's "green" , it's not simple to make it "red" to please the non-muslims (make up ) islam .

in this case most of the translation of Quran are wrong and anti-islam and fake .


is this "offensive" anti-islam site , because they had translate the Quran , that i adopt in Arabic and most of the muslims adopt too ?

even in Egypt , they misuse that verse of Quran to abuse the wife "the home of obedience"
http://www.lahona.com/show_files.aspx?fid=378899



Quran Explorer

Surah An-Nisa 4-34/35
[SIZE=2.2]Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great. (34) [/size]

 

[Godobeyer]

Here's what I understand Godobeyer is saying:

In terms of this thread (that has gone WAY off-track)

*No one should mock or make fun of another religion, either through words, cartoons, movies, etc. in such a way that can provoke/insult others. There should be a protective law for all religions to be protected and not mocked/insulted.*

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have different beliefs, and are therefore "strangers" to each other.

These are his views about the side-tracked topic of women in Islam:

1) Men are the leaders and protectors of women in their homes and in public;
2) Women need the protection of men, and therefore need to ask permission to leave the house;
3) If a wife is misbehaving, first talk to her, then separate beds from her, then if she doesn't "obey", then you can softly beat her. If she then cooperates, then take her back; if not, divorce her.
4) Men and women both deserve respect, but have different (traditional) roles; man works, woman cares for the house and children.
5) The West exploits women through sexualizing them via porn movies and lax rules about interacting with men.

If I have this wrong, then I apologize, but I think I understand him quite well.

I happen to disagree with him, but I do understand him.

disagree as you want , i have no problem with that , notice that you did not gave a link to translation of Quran support what you belief!!!
why you didnot gave ? because there is NO official translation of Quran "commun translation" support your claim