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Argument against "lacktheism"

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
S believes X because R: in other words any belief someone has, there must be a reason for them to have it.

A theist believes in god(s) because of a reason (R). A theistic R may be personal experience, and an atheistic R may be indoctrination. Either way there is R.

If R != gods really exist, there must be *some other R*.

So, when rejecting R = gods really exist, one must propose an alternative R.

Saying "S believes X because R" is a positive position, a claim, no matter what R is, theistic or atheistic.

All positive positions/claims must have reason and evidence for us to seriously consider them.

This means anyone who rejects R = gods really exist must also claim S believes X because R and provide reason and evidence for R. Or to simplify, the very idea of "lacktheism" doesn't really make sense. If you are an atheist you have no escape from believing S believes X because R, same as the theist cannot escape it.
I think religious belief is a cultural thing and passed down by indoctrination of children. Religious practice is part of the same parcel.

Since all infants learn their language and their social rules and their particular understanding from their seniors, particularly their family, I dare same the same is true of nonbelievers. For the nonbeliever however the world and its ways are explained in terms that don't involve supernatural belief, or at least supernatural belief of that kind ─ I dare say nonbelievers have owned their share of rabbit's feet.

And of course growing up can lead through times of dissatisfaction, a sense of lacking direction, those kinds of things, so the believer tries a different belief or tries nonbelief, the nonbeliever tries belief of some kind, and so on. Where they end up can only be answered case by case,

Still, to go back to the OP, I think it's pretty safe to say that for both belief and nonbelief, the initial reason R is indoctrination, either formal with Sunday schools, or informal with Sundays off.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I object to the lie that atheists "don't believe".
There you go again.
You presume a "lie" because you just can't
accept that honest reasonable people
wouldn't believe your superstitions.
What they all believe is that every theist they have ever encountered was wrong in what they believed about God. And yet not a single one of these atheists could ever prove that this was so. Not one, ever. Even while they were all constantly insisting that every theist they meet must immediately prove to them that their belief in their gods it the truth.

I have no problem with atheism as a personal choice.
Except that you believe we're all liars.
Noone has to defend their personal choices. Nor do I have a problem with theism as a personal choice. (Though they will have to accept the consequences.) I take issue with peope being dishonest about it and attacking others for it.
But you do inspire defense against
your accusations of being liars.

Calm down.
Learn tolerance.
And some civility would be good too.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Once a person has started down the road
of self deception it may be very hard to turn back.
It's a vicious feedback loop.
When one believes, everything looks like evidence.
Then the more one sees, the more one believes.
The worst delusion is...
"Existence of everything proves God's existence."
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I object to the lie that atheists "don't believe". What they all believe is that every theist they have ever encountered was wrong in what they believed about God. And yet not a single one of these atheists could ever prove that this was so. Not one, ever. Even while they were all constantly insisting that every theist they meet must immediately prove to them that their belief in their gods it the truth.

I have no problem with atheism as a personal choice. Noone has to defend their personal choices. Nor do I have a problem with theism as a personal choice. (Though they will have to accept the consequences.) I take issue with peope being dishonest about it and attacking others for it.
I'm still waiting for a believer to tell me what real thing God is so if I find a real suspect I can determine whether it's God or not. I haven't found evern a single exception to the observation that the only manner in which gods are known to exist is as concepts. notions, things imagined in individual brains.

When you clear that point up for me, we can set about determining whether there are any examples to be found in reality, the world external to the self which we know about through our senses. Meanwhile, we can't, because there's nothing real we should be looking for.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Good answer!

I'm going to make this my default when I'm called out on claims I can't support.
I have explained this "evidence" many, many, many times on here, and to the same people. But they don't want to listen, or understand. They just want to dismiss and disparage. So I already know there is no point whatever in bothering to explain something that I have already explained many times before to people that have no intention of ever comprehending.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'm still waiting for a believer to tell me what real thing God is so if I find a real suspect I can determine whether it's God or not.
Well, since you seem to be obsessed with demanding what you cannot have, I guess you'll be waiting a very long time.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Evidence please?
Well, @PureX won't explain, so I will.

What @1137 is going on about asking questions relating to where humans are first taught about gods - the reasons why humans understand gods are a thing in the first place - is an important one. And it fundamentally comes down to a response to human experiences of existence - nature, reality, the universe, everything. Theism originates from humans having an experience of something in their lives. More specifically, experiences that can be called "mystical experiences" by some scholars. A sense of something greater than themselves, of something awe-inspiring, of... in short? Something worthy of worship. That's all gods are - something that a human experienced out there in the world that they deem worthy of worship. And it all derives from indisputably real experience that they had.

Calling something a "god" is like applying a title to something. It indicates a particular relationship or character of that thing we've experienced. Sometimes a different word gets used in other cultures, and sometimes a word like "god" isn't used at all. Doesn't matter - gotta look at what the word/placeholder is actually pointing at. Gods are understood differently across cultures. In some, our own human ancestors are worthy of worship as an expression of our deep gratitude for our origins. In others, it's the very air we breathe and the very land we walk on, for without it we wouldn't be here. In others still, it's a numinous transcendent ideal that is so beyond our material universe that it is scarcely comprehensible other than a feeling of unity and oneness. And all of these are inspired by human experiences of existence.

The kicker is, as theologies develop, it can kind of become like a game of telephone and morph away from its source or roots. Different folks have different life experiences - some might have something that is especially profound, and they're also a really charismatic speaker who is good at telling that story to others. They might struggle to articulate it, embellish for effect in an attempt to help others see what they experienced. These second hand retellings have great cultural value, but they are also not the same as directly having the experience oneself. Then, up pop cultural ideas about the gods that are one step removed from the direct experiences that someone had of them. In some cases, very elaborate dogmas are created that canonize these experiences or only certain special people (e.g., "prophets") are considered to have valid experiences of the gods. All of these creations of theology and religion are beautiful in their own way, and they can get away from the roots of things a bit. Those roots of direct experience of life and living, the awe and wonder at it all, and knowing humans are just plain not the biggest game in town.

Sorry if that was a bit on the long side. The short of it is, gods exist the same way any label we use for the territory does. It's a word we use to describe things out there in existence, though gods are a bit of a special case in that it's also a response to the spectacle and grandeur and mystery of the universe.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
People lie to themselves, and to us, all the time. Atheists tell us what they believe CONSTANTLY, even as they lie and claim they don't believe anything so they won't have to defend it. It's standard practice.
That is, as usual, quite untrue. The atheists on this forum have been at great pains, over and over and over and over again, to explain why we do not believe in deities and demons -- not why we don't believe anything, as you put it. In fact, we all believe many things, usually for good reason. But the reason for not believing in deities and demons is really quite simple -- there is precisely zero reason to suppose that they exist that we can see.

Now, you may see a tree and say, "there! That's a reason to believe in God!" We do not. We have some idea of how that tree came to be, how it's parents came to be, how their parents came to be, and it's all quite natural, requiring no supernatural intervention whatever. And because we see no need for supernatural intervention, we don't invent any!
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Sorry if that was a bit on the long side. The short of it is, gods exist the same way any label we use for the territory does. It's a word we use to describe things out there in existence, though gods are a bit of a special case in that it's also a response to the spectacle and grandeur and mystery of the universe.

I'll answer the short paragraph;-)

Gods exist in people's minds, there is no falsifiable evidence for any other scenario.

Many will claim they (or it) exists everywhere and slate anyone who believes differently. That's where the disagreements start.

I see gods as a response to not being willing to question what is out there. Many people who don't know fill the gap with god because they were told from childhood that's how it is.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I have explained this "evidence" many, many, many times on here, and to the same people. But they don't want to listen, or understand. They just want to dismiss and disparage. So I already know there is no point whatever in bothering to explain something that I have already explained many times before to people that have no intention of ever comprehending.
Have you, I wonder, read the many, many disparate and often contradictorynotions of what "god" is right here on this forum? Try "religious debates" for a wee taste -- you'll find so much that contradicts so much else that it begins to make the head spin.

Now, for some of us, when we look at everything we've ever heard about what people believe, and how much the contradict one another, we have no difficulty at all answering the simple question: "Is it more likely that all of those contradictory beliefs are equally true, or is it more likely that they are equally false?"
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I'll answer the short paragraph;-)

Gods exist in people's minds, there is no falsifiable evidence for any other scenario.

Many will claim they (or it) exists everywhere and slate anyone who believes differently. That's where the disagreements start.

I see gods as a response to not being willing to question what is out there. Many people who don't know fill the gap with god because they were told from childhood that's how it is.
*sigh*

Yeah, I can tell you didn't read the rest of that. Probably should have just done what PureX did and not bothered.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
*sigh*

Yeah, I can tell you didn't read the rest of that. Probably should have just done what PureX did and not bothered.

Don't sigh, i did read it, the last paragraph was it in a nutshell. And omitted the stuff that is meaningless to me
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Theism originates from humans having an experience of something in their lives. More specifically, experiences that can be called "mystical experiences" by some scholars. A sense of something greater than themselves, of something awe-inspiring, of... in short? Something worthy of worship. That's all gods are - something that a human experienced out there in the world that they deem worthy of worship. And it all derives from indisputably real experience that they had.
I understand worship based on faith in something one does not fully understand, but you are speaking of direct personal experiences here.

What makes the subject of these experiences worthy of worship?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This is a good illustration.

You believe the theist believes in god because of indoctrination. This is a positive claim you must now defend.
No, it's an observation. For example no human beleives in Jjesus as lord and savior UNTIL they hear other humans talk about it. This is why any civilization in history has never heard of jesus BEFORE Western explorers showed up (and often murdered them for being heathens).
As for being "born" an atheist, let's not go down the nonsense rabbit hole of projection it takes to compare the intellect of one's position to a baby.
Atheist only means non-theist. Anyone who hasn't adopted some idea of a god or religious framework isn't a theist. It's arguable that even children who adopt ideas from parents and family aren't really theists because they aren't able to understand what the ideas mean. Santa Claus is adopted for much the same reason, the idea of Santa is treated as real, just as religious ideas are treated as true. These ideas can be scrutinized once a person has adequate reasoning skill.

The book Emotional Intelligence outlines how social beliefs are adopted by non-rational means, basically social learning. It explains how ideas can become established and integrated into identity, and then be very difficult to assess and scrutinize. We see believers on these discussions unable to assess their own religious beliefs while easily criticizing beliefs of others religions and even conclusions in science. This points to indoctrination.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
What @1137 is going on about asking questions relating to where humans are first taught about gods - the reasons why humans understand gods are a thing in the first place - is an important one. And it fundamentally comes down to a response to human experiences of existence - nature, reality, the universe, everything. Theism originates from humans having an experience of something in their lives. More specifically, experiences that can be called "mystical experiences" by some scholars. A sense of something greater than themselves, of something awe-inspiring, of... in short? Something worthy of worship. That's all gods are - something that a human experienced out there in the world that they deem worthy of worship. And it all derives from indisputably real experience that they had.

Calling something a "god" is like applying a title to something. It indicates a particular relationship or character of that thing we've experienced. Sometimes a different word gets used in other cultures, and sometimes a word like "god" isn't used at all. Doesn't matter - gotta look at what the word/placeholder is actually pointing at. Gods are understood differently across cultures. In some, our own human ancestors are worthy of worship as an expression of our deep gratitude for our origins. In others, it's the very air we breathe and the very land we walk on, for without it we wouldn't be here. In others still, it's a numinous transcendent ideal that is so beyond our material universe that it is scarcely comprehensible other than a feeling of unity and oneness. And all of these are inspired by human experiences of existence.
The problem, for many of us, is that word "experience." You mention "from indisputably real experience that they had." And I will agree, the "experience" was real -- they experienced it. The problem is, what was the origin of those experiences. Can they be, in any sense, reified -- explained as caused by something outside of a malfunction of that most complex organ, the human brain.

When I read the works of Dr. Oliver Sacks, such as The Man who Mistook His Wife for a Hat or A Leg to Stand On, or Hallucinations or An Anthropologist on Mars, I am ceaselessly amazed at just how much our brains are capable of cooking up, all on their own. And at just how much they actually do it! Much of what we think we remember, you know, is actually less what really happened but more what story our brain wove to explain what it perceived.

I wrote a fairly long essay on this forum several years ago, called Joan of Arc's Voices, which provides some insight into just how much I think the brain is capable of inventing. It's interesting to ponder that many of those who doubt the authorship of Shakespeare's works doubt it because they though he couldn't possibly have known as much as he did about court life. But in fact, that's simply not true. He was a voracious read of Holinshed and other historians, for example, and even today, common people know much more about the life of monarchies like the Windsors than might be suspected. We see all sorts of stuff, and we store it away -- and it can get used, sometimes not even consciously.
 
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