Argument by performance: God Has no Messengers

[1213]

…This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way. ….

And how can you say the message is corrupted? I don’t think the message in the Bible is corrupted.

Also, Bible tells about Holy Spirit as a teacher, I think that is very good way.

However when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth, for he will not speak from himself; but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming.
John 16:13

…The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !
….

Yes, it is better technology for communistic governments to control people and protect them from knowing the truth. I don’t think it is better for letting people to know the truth.

 

[PureX]

Yes, he gave us reason and intuition. This way we have natural theology. But is it only on us to know him? I think in this further development God want us to grow in knowing him more intimately. Not like we know objects but like we know a person. This requires a dialogue and devotion.

I think WE want to know (God). But that doesn't means God wants us to know (God). I would presume if God did, we already would.

Instead, I think we are left 'unknowing' so that we would be free to choose our own beliefs and desires, and thereby create ourselves.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Maybe God inspires humans with the compassion and courage to step in when other humans do that,

Well, if this god inspires humans to be better, apparently, this god is not doing a very good job, does he? Why doesn't he inspire rapist, the wrongdoers to become compassionate?

or maybe we just evolved such compassion along with some of us having evolved a genetic predisposition to believe in God.

If that's the case, how's that evolving process you are referring is working?

Either way I note you haven’t faulted my logic, only said where you think it leads

Where does it lead? The OP, is saying a god without messengers make so much sense, whereas a god with messengers doesnt make sense.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

God wants to test people as to which of them will remain true to Their Messengers and the Message with which they were sent. And being Merciful, They time and again sent Messengers to bring people back to the straight path.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

Perhaps the children of Israel did a better job of remembering their Messengers and Prophets and the Message with which they were sent?

 

[danieldemol]

Well, if this god inspires humans to be better, apparently, this god is not doing a very good job, does he? Why doesn't he inspire rapist, the wrongdoers to become compassionate?

You are rehashing the classical problem of evil here. Not only does it have no solution (in a strictly monotheistic paradigm), it is a problem faced by a God with Messengers as well.

If that's the case, how's that evolving process you are referring is working?

Are you asking me how evolution works or how well it works? Evolution is a blind process, it doesn’t have any requirement of a perfect solution.

Where does it lead? The OP, is saying a god without messengers make so much sense, whereas a god with messengers doesnt make sense.

So no argument for why a God should have Messengers, just a wrong assumption that if you disprove someone else’s idea of how the world works yours is the only idea left standing. If you are arguing the two ideas are just as right (or wrong) as each other I can see your point, but the question is, are you proposing that?

 

[sam ex muslim]

I agree on both counts: that God would have no logical need to 'message' creation. And that even if such a need were to occur, using individual humans to transmit the message would be both ineffective and illogical.

On the other hand, though, I think the basic idea that some 'glimpse' or 'spark' of our Creator's 'mind and spirit' could manifest within us, and that we might feel obliged to share such an experience, and our understanding of it, with others, is not an illogical or ineffective phenomenon to presume to occur. But, being that it's so subjective in nature, the rest of us should remain skeptical of it's proposed authenticity and interpretation.

Wow, That is beautiful. I think you are reading my mind.

 

[sam ex muslim]

a picture may say a thousand words, but to explain to another is like explaining a joke...it loses an important element in the explaining.
reminds me of the zen stories where people go to the holy guys and ask questions to which the guys respond with koans and enigmatic cryptic comments....and that for thousands of years to now is considered normal behavior.....and part of the process apparently.
however that seems evasive and could take much time, if ever....

consider how the peoples deemed more primitive seem to have some deeper connection with nature in many cases....they can survive where others would perish, nature seems to be a more open book in unique ways that so called civilized people have lost touch with..
in any case, they usually say that nature is alive and speaks all the time if one has eyes to see and the ears to hear, otherwise it is just a pretty landscape picture of a possibly hostile world.

imagine the Avatar movie to see the 2 sides of the dichotomy
[they touched on these thematic concepts somewhat]

Nice. I agree.

 

[sam ex muslim]

Actually, the LORD gave his message of the 10 commandments (Deut 5), by his voice, directly to the house of Israel, to be a light to the nations. The nations and Israel instead has chosen darkness in the form of the traditions of men, and false prophets, such as Paul, Baha, and Mohammed, among others. Men were given an option of choosing Truth over darkness, and yet have chosen the message of Satan, the serpent, and his messengers. As we at the "end of the age", the chickens will come home to roost. (Matthew 13:38-43)

let me try to break down your statement to better understand and respond;

You claim God (The supreme being which created the Universe and complex Genes of all living beings) made the following:

1. (Limitations in time, space and target) God gave his message by his own VOICE to a group people lost in the desert. Instead of making all nations hear him in the same time, he actually wanted just those people probably thirsty and delusional to hear his MAJESTIC VOICE. Yet the same GOD wondering why other nations can not believe I spoke to the house of Israel, did I do something wrong. Aha it must be Satan he fooled them with those crazy arguments.

2. (limitations in narration) The story was not witness by other nations nor by the subsequent generations to come who had to face (per your claim) false prophets, dark forces mis-interpretations, corruption, validation. I think the followers of Josef Smith of Mormons and Mohammed would be very upset because you deny their miracles which were witnessed by many and also narrated in text and books. Do you claim they are all bunch of liars, well I think the accusations can go both ways.

The aforementioned limitations do not and can not be the product/performance of the same deity which created the Universe. I see 2 different hand writings which does not MATCH.

Having said that, If however you claim that the God of Israel at that period of time was Yahweh of Mount Sinai, the Thunder Fearless Deity (Minor limited Deity) , I have to say with all of my being and heart this could be very much true. Simply because deities can have limited aspect, manifestations and powers.

This by no means suggest that the current Jewish mystics or Kabbalists who have gone through centuries of thought, spiritual transformations, experience accumulation, and evolutions (as other schools did as well) are worshipping a minor deity. On the contrary I think we can learn from them on how to communicate with the Universal Divine consciousness providing we can pick up the essense and eliminate the religious dogmatic beliefs.

 

[sam ex muslim]

From the very first days of creation, we know that Yahweh's Word contains great power. As a matter of fact, when Yahweh speaks, matter immediately obeys. Whether that is in Genesis 1:3 where Elohim said 'Let there be light' and there was light, or something else. Sometimes Yahweh doesn't even need to speak and matter obeys His will. Yahweh is powerful. However, just because His Word is not adhered to by the human family, shouldn't lead you to believe that there is a great inconsistency. Yahweh's Word has the ability to change us in to better, righteous, obedient people, but unlike matter, human beings have the choice to disobey. Why not take this as proof that Yahweh is merciful in that He has the power to force us humans to do His will just like matter, but He chooses not to even use a fraction of His great power but wants to see imperfect humans to subject to His will on their own. And humans should be able to see the clarity and perfection of His Word. He has given us all thinking capabilities able to comprehend the perfect plan of salvation.

Titus 2:11 says "For the grace of Yahweh hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,"

I have posted this answer for another person but I think it would service the same reasoning.

let me try to break down your statement to better understand and respond;

You claim God (The supreme being which created the Universe and complex Genes of all living beings) made the following:

1. (Limitations in time, space and target) God gave his message by his own VOICE to a group people lost in the desert. Instead of making all nations hear him in the same time, he actually wanted just those people probably thirsty and delusional to hear his MAJESTIC VOICE. Yet the same GOD wondering why other nations can not believe I spoke to the house of Israel, did I do something wrong. Aha it must be Satan he fooled them with those crazy arguments.

2. (limitations in narration) The story was not witness by other nations nor by the subsequent generations to come who had to face (per your claim) false prophets, dark forces mis-interpretations, corruption, validation. I think the followers of Josef Smith of Mormons and Mohammed would be very upset because you deny their miracles which were witnessed by many and also narrated in text and books. Do you claim they are all bunch of liars, well I think the accusations can go both ways.

The aforementioned limitations do not and can not be the product/performance of the same deity which created the Universe. I see 2 different hand writings which does not MATCH.

Having said that, If however you claim that the God of Israel at that period of time was Yahweh of Mount Sinai, the Thunder Fearless Deity (Minor limited Deity) , I have to say with all of my being and heart this could be very much true. Simply because deities can have limited aspect, manifestations and powers.

This by no means suggest that the current Jewish mystics or Kabbalists who have gone through centuries of thought, spiritual transformations, experience accumulation, and evolutions (as other schools did as well) are worshipping a minor deity. On the contrary I think we can learn from them on how to communicate with the Universal Divine consciousness providing we can pick up the essense and eliminate the religious dogmatic beliefs

 

[Tumah]

This post is for individuals who believe there is a universal god, creator, divinity or consciousness. Therefore we will skip the arguments of the creator and can argue about sending messengers.

If you want to understand some attributes of this creator, what is better than looking at his creation.

I see a vast, great and majestic universe far beyond my humble comprehension and intelligence. I see a majestic complexity and intelligent design in the creation of living beings from the microscopic genetic makeup up to the macroscopic phenotypic morphology.

I see this as a great performance beyond words but for sake of simplicity, I call it "performance in creation".

I will compare that to the "Performance in delivery of his/her/it message"

Now let see schools that claims the creator sent messengers with books and religions. I am mainly pointing towards Abrahamic religions given my background more precisely Islam.

The creator who is omnipotent, omniscience has a throne (regardless how you interpret throne) and he send a man with a book (regardless of how muslims think Bible is like the Torah and Quran a revelation) just like naive human projections of a king who send a delegate(s) with a message.

This creator knows that people will corrupt and twist his words yet he can not find a better way.

This creator is dependent on narrators and generations to pass on his word uncorrupted and the exact same interpretations not other imaginable or fancy interpretations.

This creators sends too many prophets and messengers to small nation of Israel meanwhile he knows that he kind of forgot about Arabs who are praying to Idols over many centuries.

This creators thinks Israel deserve a long list of prophets and messengers but other nations like Egyptians, Africans, Arabs, Babylonians, Persians, Indians, Chineses, Europeans (Greeks, Roman, Germanic, Celts,...) natives from other continents meanwhile need one or two messengers and can practice Voodoo and worships many deities and spirits until he finish with the Israel first.

The Creator is obsessed with Israel that he has to mention them in Torah, Bible and Quran. So obsessed that he choose them initially then curse them 9 times in Quran like an angry boyfriend.

The creator probably weak in geography and spacial-temporal dynamic of people that he concentrates most of his efforts in Israel and later in Arabia.

This creator is so omnipotent and omniscience being aware that human psychology, science, technology, morals, philosophy evolves overtime and require newer prophets and messengers to stop at least chopping of each other heads between Shia and Sunni muslims each claiming the uncorrupted version of Islam, yet he decided that he will conclude the seal the prophethood and message with Mohammed of Arabia.

The creator has seen that his slave Mark Zuckerberg has created FACEBOOK better technology for delivering messages and communication. He said to hell with that, I am out !


I can safely conclude that there is a vast inconsistency between the performance of creation and the performance of communication and delivering a message. This vast inconsistency tells me that the THE ENTITY WHICH CREATED THE UNIVERSE CAN NOT BE THE SAME AS THAT OF ABRAHAMIC RELIGION.

The problem with your POV is that it relies on a specific version of events that may not be consistent with what the groups you're speaking about actually believe. I can't speak for other religions, but you're narrative is just a straw-man as a representation of Jewish beliefs. In fact, even though you actually say that it speaks for all Abrahamic religions, it doesn't appear to me to be consistent with the beliefs of any Abrahamic religion other than Islam.

 

[sam ex muslim]

I believe that there are a lot of false assumptions being made here.

First - that God only sent prophets to Israel.

Second - that God stopped sending prophets.

Third - that God cannot use the internet and Facebook.

In my post I had to accommodate 3 religions namely Judaism, Christianity and Islam. This was shorter but more challenging approach than addressing each one of them individually. Yet I think many points are still valid, so let me clarify.

First- God only sent prophets to Israel.
The Judea-christian religions are mainly focused on nation of Israel, and fail miserably in mentioning a neat list of the other prophets/messengers and their revelation in other nations. For thousands of years, while one prophet after another are sent to Israel, the surrounding nations: Africans, Egyptians, Arabs, Romans, Indians, Chineses were polytheists, apparently the God of Abrahamic religion had a fetish relationship with Israel. We have no recording nor the other nations have recoding of list of messengers from Jesus or Yahweh or related to the happy coming of the Son of God or God manifested in the person of Jesus or Israel. Every nation had their own share of spirituality ranges form cultural ancestry, deities, good beings, negative beings,..etc.
While Jesus was preaching in Israel, Arabs were celebrating Idols before and after his coming, while some later generations heard about Jesus many of them received wrong Gospels which Quran has quoted some stories from. This performance/way of delivering a message does not fit with the Omnipotent unless you plan to limit him and insult his intelligent.

Seconds- God stopped sending prophets
This is an islamic belief. Nonetheless, If you are aware of list of prophets after Jesus then please share them here, I am sure everyone has something to say about them especially the muslims who can call you a liar and you will call them liars worshippers of Satan (accusation goes both ways ) which validates my point (limitation of narration and witness).

Third- God can not use the internet and Facebook. I presume you mean christians passing on the Word of Jesus nowadays via the internet. Then you totally missed the point. This is useless because no one witness your story which is refuted by both Jewish and Muslims. Everyone can claim anything as long as we can not witness it (limitations of narration).

God the Creator is not limited nor weak. God has to be omnipotent and Omniscience and his Performance in delivering a message must match his performance in creation.

Having said that, this by no mean refute the idea that Jesus was an enlighten being and a greater teacher of Kabbalah, who wished of his followers to eliminate the false traditions and narrations and seek the path of enlightenment and higher truths.

 

[sam ex muslim]

The problem with your POV is that it relies on a specific version of events that may not be consistent with what the groups you're speaking about actually believe. I can't speak for other religions, but you're narrative is just a straw-man as a representation of Jewish beliefs. In fact, even though you actually say that it speaks for all Abrahamic religions, it doesn't appear to me to be consistent with the beliefs of any Abrahamic religion other than Islam.

I have posted this answer for another person but I think it would serve the same reasoning.

let me try to break down your statement to better understand and respond;

You claim God (The supreme being which created the Universe and complex Genes of all living beings) made the following:

1. (Limitations in time, space and target) God gave his message by his own VOICE to a group people lost in the desert. Instead of making all nations hear him in the same time, he actually wanted just those people probably thirsty and delusional to hear his MAJESTIC VOICE. Yet the same GOD wondering why other nations can not believe I spoke to the house of Israel, did I do something wrong. Aha it must be Satan he fooled them with those crazy arguments.

2. (limitations in narration) The story was not witness by other nations nor by the subsequent generations to come who had to face (per your claim) false prophets, dark forces mis-interpretations, corruption, validation. I think the followers of Josef Smith of Mormons and Mohammed would be very upset because you deny their miracles which were witnessed by many and also narrated in text and books. Do you claim they are all bunch of liars, well I think the accusations can go both ways.

The aforementioned limitations do not and can not be the product/performance of the same deity which created the Universe. I see 2 different hand writings which does not MATCH.

Having said that, If however you claim that the God of Israel at that period of time was Yahweh of Mount Sinai, the Thunder Fearless Deity (Minor limited Deity) , I have to say with all of my being and heart this could be very much true. Simply because deities can have limited aspect, manifestations and powers.

This by no means suggest that the current Jewish mystics or Kabbalists who have gone through centuries of thought, spiritual transformations, experience accumulation, and evolutions (as other schools did as well) are worshipping a minor deity. On the contrary I think we can learn from them on how to communicate with the Universal Divine consciousness providing we can pick up the essense and eliminate the religious dogmatic beliefs.

In addition, I am no expert in Judaism, so help me here. What is the opinion in Judaism about the sealing of Prophethood, my understanding some believe it was sealed after the destruction of the temple. Other thinks it is still happening in the nation of Israel !

 

[sam ex muslim]

As a Baha'i, I do not believe that Muhammad was the last Prophet. I believe that Muhammad was called the Seal of the Prophets because He was the last prophet in the Adamic Cycle which began with Adam, and thus He sealed off the Adamic Cycle. I believe that the Bab ushered in a new Cycle of religion in 1844, called the Age of Fulfillment, and then nine years later Baha'u'llah received His revelation from God. The Baha'i Faith is based upon the Revelation of Baha'u'llah and it is considered an Abrahamic religion since it emerged out of Islam.

I do not believe that God or the Messengers are responsible for how humans messed up the revealed religions so I do not believe that is an argument against God using Messengers. Can you think of a better way for God to communicate to humanity?

Good, let me see if I can make it interesting.

Firstly,
I think muslims are trying to mute the voice of Bahaai people since its beginning which is not fair, but I am not surprised. So I kindly request from your people to speak up and take your position among the Abrahamic religions. An example is Wikipedia, why I can not find anything on Bahai here Abrahamic religions - Wikipedia

Secondly,
Bahai religion assumes that the messengers/prophethood was not sealed by Mohammed. While this contradicts the teaching of Islam, it make better logic than Islam, Why? simply because if we assume there must be messengers from God and knowing that there is an ongoing human progress and evolution, then this makes a newer revelation a necessity to keep on par with such progress.

Thirdly,
Just look around you, what you see? There is no enough divine intervention to spread the message of Bahai-Allah, minority of people witness his message, which was more universal than the previous religions. Get a pen and paper and be honest with yourself, how would you grade God out of (10), (0) being the lowest mark for his 1) Majesty in Creation 2) Majesty in delivering messengers. Then compare both grades, if they match then good for you. If not then it is likely that Abrahamic religions are Man-made and we need better ways to communicate with this GOD.

Fourthly,
If we assume that God wants to communicate with us, it must be in a way as great as his creation! Maybe we need to step down, put away our differences and revisit our understanding about the nature of God instead of projecting our past understanding and beliefs. Seeking spiritual experience with a universal Divine force through self realization and perfecting ourselves which could take more than one life time. Such subjective experiences even those reported by enlightened beings are meaningless if we do not experience that individually.

 

[sam ex muslim]

God wants to test people as to which of them will remain true to Their Messengers and the Message with which they were sent. And being Merciful, They time and again sent Messengers to bring people back to the straight path.



Perhaps the children of Israel did a better job of remembering their Messengers and Prophets and the Message with which they were sent?

Your first statement can be refuted, in the following points:

1) The quality of a test reflects the quality of the person who made it. What kind of waste of time to make such great efforts to create heaven and earth yet fail miserably in delivering sporadic messengers without good knowledge of geography. You can not test someone if you have not done a good job in telling them the right curriculum.

2) You can not assume that Jewish and Christians who dedicate all their lives to their religion and their God are not true to themselves or are dying of jealousy because they can not accept Mohammed the Arabic messengers of Allah as the Quran states. Look around, this forum is filled with people sincerely seeking the truth, and up to their knowledge they truly think they are following the right religion.

3) Christians have witness the Crucifixion of Jesus, has risen after death, disciples tested his wounds and then lift to heavens. This contradicts Quran. Are they lying ? What should they do with their Gospels, just burn them because a man in the desert claimed they are corrupt ?

4) Jewish are fed up telling Muslims that Mohammed name is not mentioned in their traditions. Yet Muslims insist that his name is mention as Mohammadem. They are fed up with your OWN interpretations of THEIR traditions.

5) Shia Muslims swear by Allah name they have the authentic version of Islam and that their narration are the accurate one and that the great companions of Mohammed like AbuBaker and Omar will go to Hell. Sunni Muslims thinks the opposite that Shia are liars that their sources are fabricated.

6) Now that we now that Shia and Sunni and even other sects of Muslims killed each other over 1500 years. It seems we can not get another prophet or messenger to know the truth because Allah decided Mohammed is the Last Messenger and Prophet of Allah.

Points 1-6, shows an important feature of the limitations of narration. You can not depend on others to tell you a controversial story because each one will claim he got the right version, humans knows that but Allah does not.

In addition, do not confuse the concept of divine justice with performance of sending messengers, they are different topics just in case.

Your second statement can be refuted in the following points:

1) According to the Islamic tradition,

Jesus is a prophet and a messenger of Allah
Zachariah the priest is a prophet of Allah
John the Baptist is a prophet of Allah

(Christians are probably surprised now because the previous ones are not prophets but that is what Quran thinks !)

Three Prophets, one of them is a Messenger with a Bible delivered by Allah (Again Quran thinks the Bible is the Book revealed upon Jesus) in one nation in same period of time all in Israel, in the same time the grandfather of Mohammed in the nearby desert are worshipping idols with the rest of the Quraish tribe. No messenger to teach them anything it seems Allah was too busy with Israel or needs a lesson in Geography.

2) If the children of Israel were better at remembering the word of God, then why Quran state they change the word of Allah, they kill prophets and curse them 9 times !! Why such HATE ?

 

[2ndpillar]

let me try to break down your statement to better understand and respond;

You claim God (The supreme being which created the Universe and complex Genes of all living beings) made the following:

1. (Limitations in time, space and target) God gave his message by his own VOICE to a group people lost in the desert. Instead of making all nations hear him in the same time, he actually wanted just those people probably thirsty and delusional to hear his MAJESTIC VOICE. Yet the same GOD wondering why other nations can not believe I spoke to the house of Israel, did I do something wrong. Aha it must be Satan he fooled them with those crazy arguments.

2. (limitations in narration) The story was not witness by other nations nor by the subsequent generations to come who had to face (per your claim) false prophets, dark forces mis-interpretations, corruption, validation. I think the followers of Josef Smith of Mormons and Mohammed would be very upset because you deny their miracles which were witnessed by many and also narrated in text and books. Do you claim they are all bunch of liars, well I think the accusations can go both ways.

The aforementioned limitations do not and can not be the product/performance of the same deity which created the Universe. I see 2 different hand writings which does not MATCH.

Having said that, If however you claim that the God of Israel at that period of time was Yahweh of Mount Sinai, the Thunder Fearless Deity (Minor limited Deity) , I have to say with all of my being and heart this could be very much true. Simply because deities can have limited aspect, manifestations and powers.

This by no means suggest that the current Jewish mystics or Kabbalists who have gone through centuries of thought, spiritual transformations, experience accumulation, and evolutions (as other schools did as well) are worshipping a minor deity. On the contrary I think we can learn from them on how to communicate with the Universal Divine consciousness providing we can pick up the essense and eliminate the religious dogmatic beliefs.

Well, I would think that the prophecies of the "Yahweh of Mount Sinai", whereas Judah, in the "day when the nations will be gathered against it", will be like a "flaming torch" among "sheaves" with respect to its "surrounding people" (Zechariah 12:6) might have put a damper on your favored Mormons and Muslims, who have no living witnesses to any of their angels of light, but as with the Muslims, generally live in a self imposed life of strive, and death among themselves. As for the Mormons, their traditions seem to be so controversial, that they keep them secret. The present day miracle seems to be limited to Israel, whereas the coming judgment seems to be coming for both the Muslims and the Mormons, although the Mormons think they are immune, yet bear the mark of the beast with two horns like a lamb". Israel was chosen because of their father Abraham, probably for the same reason the Muslim's thought God chose them. As for your "religious dogmatic beliefs" regarding the Jewish, well, I guess you will have to live with it. You could always go home, crawl in bed a cry. That seems the in thing to do these days.

 

[sam ex muslim]

Well, I would think that the prophecies of the "Yahweh of Mount Sinai", whereas Judah, in the "day when the nations will be gathered against it", will be like a "flaming torch" among "sheaves" with respect to its "surrounding people" (Zechariah 12:6) might have put a damper on your favored Mormons and Muslims, who have no living witnesses to any of their angels of light, but as with the Muslims, generally live in a self imposed life of strive, and death among themselves. As for the Mormons, their traditions seem to be so controversial, that they keep them secret. The present day miracle seems to be limited to Israel, whereas the coming judgment seems to be coming for both the Muslims and the Mormons, although the Mormons think they are immune, yet bear the mark of the beast with two horns like a lamb". Israel was chosen because of their father Abraham, probably for the same reason the Muslim's thought God chose them. As for your "religious dogmatic beliefs" regarding the Jewish, well, I guess you will have to live with it. You could always go home, crawl in bed a cry. That seems the in thing to do these days.

I guess there are people who are happy to live with bed time stories and there are people who strive towards Ein Sof with real experience. What ever makes them happy, I think Divinity is never in hurry.

 

[Tumah]

I have posted this answer for another person but I think it would serve the same reasoning.

let me try to break down your statement to better understand and respond;

You claim God (The supreme being which created the Universe and complex Genes of all living beings) made the following:

1. (Limitations in time, space and target) God gave his message by his own VOICE to a group people lost in the desert. Instead of making all nations hear him in the same time, he actually wanted just those people probably thirsty and delusional to hear his MAJESTIC VOICE. Yet the same GOD wondering why other nations can not believe I spoke to the house of Israel, did I do something wrong. Aha it must be Satan he fooled them with those crazy arguments.

It sounds like your argument here is that G-d only spoke to one group of people and that the Jews believe that G-d spoke to them, but can't understand why other nations don't believe that G-d spoke to the Jews.

Correct me if I've misunderstood.

Assuming I haven't, this argument is a straw-man.
We don't find any expectation by G-d that other nations obey any special rules or maintain belief in Him. According to Jewish belief, it is necessary that there be a minimum of people carrying on belief in G-d in the world and we were chosen for that task in the merit of our Patriarchs. The more the merrier sure, but everyone outside of that is free to chose to find their way to G-d or not. Our job is to be the librarians, so that people can find knowledge of G-d, should they want to. That's a universal concept, not a limited one.

2. (limitations in narration) The story was not witness by other nations nor by the subsequent generations to come who had to face (per your claim) false prophets, dark forces mis-interpretations, corruption, validation. I think the followers of Josef Smith of Mormons and Mohammed would be very upset because you deny their miracles which were witnessed by many and also narrated in text and books. Do you claim they are all bunch of liars, well I think the accusations can go both ways.

It seems like this was written in response to another person, because it's a little difficult to get at how this point relates to me. There acceptance of Sinatic Revelation according to Judaism is based on the idea that the entire nation experienced it and subsequently accepted the Law they received from that event. If you were to compare that with Islam and Mormonism, only Muhammad and Joseph Smith would be required to be Muslim/Mormon and there would be no expectation on anyone who isn't them or doesn't descend from them to be their followers and they would have no business trying to convince anyone of their prophecy.

The aforementioned limitations do not and can not be the product/performance of the same deity which created the Universe. I see 2 different hand writings which does not MATCH.

Having said that, If however you claim that the God of Israel at that period of time was Yahweh of Mount Sinai, the Thunder Fearless Deity (Minor limited Deity) , I have to say with all of my being and heart this could be very much true. Simply because deities can have limited aspect, manifestations and powers.

This by no means suggest that the current Jewish mystics or Kabbalists who have gone through centuries of thought, spiritual transformations, experience accumulation, and evolutions (as other schools did as well) are worshipping a minor deity. On the contrary I think we can learn from them on how to communicate with the Universal Divine consciousness providing we can pick up the essense and eliminate the religious dogmatic beliefs.

Ok...

In addition, I am no expert in Judaism, so help me here. What is the opinion in Judaism about the sealing of Prophethood, my understanding some believe it was sealed after the destruction of the temple. Other thinks it is still happening in the nation of Israel !

Normative Jewish belief is that prophecy ended with the destruction of the First Temple. Only the prophets who were born before the destruction of the First Temple continued to prophecy until they died, which for some of them meant the beginning of the Second Temple period 70 years later.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

The quality of a test reflects the quality of the person who made it. What kind of waste of time to make such great efforts to create heaven and earth yet fail miserably in delivering sporadic messengers

According to a Hadith, God sent 124,000 Prophets. That's arguably a decent number.

without good knowledge of geography

The 124,000 Prophets were sent to all corners of the globe.

You can not assume that Jewish and Christians who dedicate all their lives to their religion and their God are not true to themselves or are dying of jealousy because they can not accept Mohammed the Arabic messengers of Allah as the Quran states. Look around, this forum is filled with people sincerely seeking the truth, and up to their knowledge they truly think they are following the right religion.

I can't see how this addresses my point.

Christians have witness the Crucifixion of Jesus, has risen after death, disciples tested his wounds and then lift to heavens. This contradicts Quran. Are they lying ? What should they do with their Gospels, just burn them because a man in the desert claimed they are corrupt ?

I can't see how this addresses my point.

Jewish are fed up telling Muslims that Mohammed name is not mentioned in their traditions. Yet Muslims insist that his name is mention as Mohammadem. They are fed up with your OWN interpretations of THEIR traditions.

I can't see how this addresses my point.

Shia Muslims swear by Allah name they have the authentic version of Islam and that their narration are the accurate one and that the great companions of Mohammed like AbuBaker and Omar will go to Hell. Sunni Muslims thinks the opposite that Shia are liars that their sources are fabricated.

By no means all Shia are so condemnatory of Sunni and vice versa.

Now that we now that Shia and Sunni and even other sects of Muslims killed each other over 1500 years. It seems we can not get another prophet or messenger to know the truth because Allah decided Mohammed is the Last Messenger and Prophet of Allah.

That is all part of the test. The Qur'an is protected from corruption. And Jesus (pbuh) will return in the future to return many to the straight path.

Points 1-6, shows an important feature of the limitations of narration. You can not depend on others to tell you a controversial story because each one will claim he got the right version, humans knows that but Allah does not.

That is why it is a test. And God in Their Mercy sent down a Book protected from corruption (the Qur'an), so that is the Criterion.

(Christians are probably surprised now because the previous ones are not prophets but that is what Quran thinks !)

John the Baptist (pbuh) was also a Mandaean Prophet.

(Again Quran thinks the Bible is the Book revealed upon Jesus)

I'm not sure that is true - not the entire Bible at any rate.

If the children of Israel were better at remembering the word of God, then why Quran state they change the word of Allah, they kill prophets and curse them 9 times !! Why such HATE ?

For their changing the Word of God and killing some of their Prophets, they incurred God's Anger. But that doesn't mean that they didn't do a better job of remembering their Messengers and Prophets than other peoples. Even so, there are positive words for Jews in the Qur'an (as for Christians and anyone who believes in God and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds).

 

[ManSinha]

Our job is to be the librarians, so that people can find knowledge of G-d, should they want to. That's a universal concept, not a limited one.

Considering that the god concepts in dharmic religions are different from those in the Jewish / Abrahamic religions - how do you reconcile that statement with the masses that worship deities that do not in any way bear resemblance to Yahweh or the Jewish concept of God - eg Lord Shiva or Lord Krishna?

The Qur'an is protected from corruption

What does that mean? That it is still in the same form as it was originally revealed to Muhammad?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

What does that mean? That it is still in the same form as it was originally revealed to Muhammad?

Yup, essentially.