Arming teachers is a great idea

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Trust me, I am correct. This was even more pronounced during hunting season. Anecdotally this supports the statement that we don't have a gun problem, we have a societal problem.

Platitudes aside, how does this help?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Ok, you wanna press the same tactic Prometheus is, alright.

Theres cases where people been in shootouts WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU. Ive read such examples. I can give you the source if you need it.

You're still not actually addressing any of the logical flaws glaring from your claims. Maybe start with them, then perhaps show me your source that will prove my personal experience as a military trainer and field leader, and not least, combat veteran, wrong.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

So, the white nationalist group did not teach cruz to commit that act. Hence, to stereotype all white nationalists as evil like cruz is assentially to go on there level in how they stereotype all blacks as inferior.

White nationalists are evil simply because of the inferiority and superiority belief which are extreme forms of one's culture. That being said, such extremes are the result of various documented murders as well as potentially undocumented murders. Slavery and the creation of systemic racism is a clear form of white nationalism and supremacy.

White supremacists/nationalists are our biggest threat and unfortunately the media does not recognize that because it is easier to paint the boogie man brown or black as opposed to white (see:White supremacists committed most extremist killings in 2017, ADL says).

In the case of cruz he was an indoctrinated white nationalist imp and anytime the FBI is doing an investigation sure, a group is going to disavow their association because they too will be investigated and their operation whether covert or not, will to be investigated. The leader in this case was just that dumb and had to recall his answer. But it is well documented that Nikolas Cruz was a racist and held racist views:

"On social media, Nikolas Cruz did not appear to be a peaceful man. He made quite clear his desire to perpetrate the exact type of violence of which he now stands accused.

Before he allegedly committed one of the worst mass shootings in US history at a Parkland, Florida, high school on Wednesday, police officials say Cruz wrote social media posts so threatening he was reported to the FBI.
He hurled slurs at blacks and Muslims, and according to the Anti-Defamation League, had ties to white supremacists. He said he would shoot people with his AR-15 and singled out police and anti-fascist protesters as deserving of his vengeance."

See:Nikolas Cruz's digital profile 'very, very disturbing' - CNN

And cruz killed white people on top of it all. So his act of evil could not have been motivated by being a white nationalist.

You do realize there are Jews who are also ethnically European/White and even they are targeted due to not having pure "aryan blood" so that fails. Part of the philosophy of white nationalism is about the purity of one's genetic line. If you aren't pure white you're considered a "mixed breed" and discarded from the fold. White supremacists have been targeting other whites for decades simply for associating with people of color this is why you will get terms like "n***er lover" thrown around since my grand father's time.

Also the other articles, notice the shooting was caused by being provoked? It was not caused by them just going out of there way to seek to kill. Now, that certainly dont justify retailiation with a gun, but it shows they wernt trying to just kill for the hell of it.

The point is if you hold ethnic views of supremacy in a multi-cultural setting it becomes more dangerous because your beliefs in their extreme form may supersede rational judgment. You cannot be a white nationalist and teach political science and even if you do, you better be damn good at lying and holding in your own personal judgment. People with this mindset is dangerous and qualified or not, should not be having no concealed weapons around kids of different ethnic backgrounds.

 

[Jollybear]

Logically daft.
Crazy.

1. If a % of teachers carry guns, then ALL of the teachers need to wear body armour at school, because a killer would seek to kill ALL teachers ASAP.

2. Air-conditioning systems will be needed in ALL schools because body armour gets very hot/sweaty otherwise.

3. All teachers, both gun carrying and unarmed will need extra pay because of extra risk.

4. Gun carrying teachers will need special all-risks insurance in case they shoot a child during a combat or by accident.

5. Gun carrying teachers will need full combat training, assessment and at least law enforcement pay.

6. Gun carrying teachers should be payed to give up at least two weeks of their holiday time each year for training and assessment reviews.

I think schools already have airconditioning.

And bullet proof vests could be a voluntary option, but not mandatory. I dont think its wise to overcomplicate this because there wont be a PERFECT defense. Its not about perfect security, but better security. A shooter could shoot a teacher in the head, should the teacher now wear a bullet proof helmet?

Also, i dont think teachers need to give up two weeks for training every year. Just train as a ONE TIME event. Once you know how to use the gun and learn scenario situations to protect yourself better, thats it, training is over.

I trained on how to ride a bike. Its been years since ive driven a bike. I dont need to train again, i know how to ride it.

And no, they dont need extra pay for extra risk. If thats the case then youd have to pay kids to go to school because of risk.

Insurrence for accidents, perhaps.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Just train as a ONE TIME event. Once you know how to use the gun and learn scenario situations to protect yourself better, thats it, training is over.

... wow.

 

[Jollybear]

White nationalists are evil simply because of the inferiority and superiority belief which are extreme forms of one's culture. That being said, such extremes are the result of various documented murders as well as potentially undocumented murders. Slavery and the creation of systemic racism is a clear form of white nationalism and supremacy.

White supremacists/nationalists are our biggest threat and unfortunately the media does not recognize that because it is easier to paint the boogie man brown or black as opposed to white (see:White supremacists committed most extremist killings in 2017, ADL says).

In the case of cruz he was an indoctrinated white nationalist imp and anytime the FBI is doing an investigation sure, a group is going to disavow their association because they too will be investigated and their operation whether covert or not, will to be investigated. The leader in this case was just that dumb and had to recall his answer. But it is well documented that Nikolas Cruz was a racist and held racist views:

"On social media, Nikolas Cruz did not appear to be a peaceful man. He made quite clear his desire to perpetrate the exact type of violence of which he now stands accused.

Before he allegedly committed one of the worst mass shootings in US history at a Parkland, Florida, high school on Wednesday, police officials say Cruz wrote social media posts so threatening he was reported to the FBI.
He hurled slurs at blacks and Muslims, and according to the Anti-Defamation League, had ties to white supremacists. He said he would shoot people with his AR-15 and singled out police and anti-fascist protesters as deserving of his vengeance."

See:Nikolas Cruz's digital profile 'very, very disturbing' - CNN




You do realize there are Jews who are also ethnically European/White and even they are targeted due to not having pure "aryan blood" so that fails. Part of the philosophy of white nationalism is about the purity of one's genetic line. If you aren't pure white you're considered a "mixed breed" and discarded from the fold. White supremacists have been targeting other whites for decades simply for associating with people of color this is why you will get terms like "n***er lover" thrown around since my grand father's time.



The point is if you hold ethnic views of supremacy in a multi-cultural setting it becomes more dangerous because your beliefs in their extreme form may supersede rational judgment. You cannot be a white nationalist and teach political science and even if you do, you better be damn good at lying and holding in your own personal judgment. People with this mindset is dangerous and qualified or not, should not be having no concealed weapons around kids of different ethnic backgrounds.

Cruz was killing indiscriminately. This means his killing was not motivated by race.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Cruz was killing indiscriminately. This means his killing was not motivated by race.

His motivation didn't have to be about race, but the fact that he aligned himself with a white nationalist organization and held racist views is dangerous enough. Not to mention his disdain for anti-fascism, and cops is equally disturbing. Any white person holding white nationalist views is dangerous to me point blank. I don't care if you shot up a building full of people who are pale looking.....The act itself is the obvious factor but if you hold supremacist views you are doubly disturbing.

But you are missing the point.....I don't want a teacher willing to lie to the school about her or his white nationalist background simply because they want to infiltrate the school system. This is the same tactics they use to infiltrate police departments and the law system. I don't want any white nationalist who is a teacher armed, qualified or not. I'm sure you wouldn't want Quanell X who thinks the extermination of whites and Jews is a divine mandate teaching your kids right?

 

[Jollybear]

You're still not actually addressing any of the logical flaws glaring from your claims. Maybe start with them, then perhaps show me your source that will prove my personal experience as a military trainer and field leader, and not least, combat veteran, wrong.

Ok, i have zero doubt you know more on guns and how there used then i do.

But, that dont mean i cannot REASON as a human being.

You asked my job, i told you truck driver.

Even though your not a truck driver, i dont doubt you can make reasonable points about the job despite not doing it.

Also, look here

Trump sees veterans as the perfect armed teachers, but they're divided

This article says amongs veterans the opinion on arming teachers is varied.

So you saying im wrong because ive never been in a shootout and you are a combat trainer is not a strong enough point.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

So you saying im wrong because ive never been in a shootout and you are a combat trainer is not a strong enough point.

Actually, I haven't said you are wrong because you've never been in a shootout. I raised a number of questions about how this arming teachers thing is supposed to work, and you've dismissed those questions with... frankly, ridiculously implausible insouciance.

 

[Jollybear]

His motivation didn't have to be about race, but the fact that he aligned himself with a white nationalist organization and held racist views is dangerous enough. Not to mention his disdain for anti-fascism, and cops is equally disturbing. Any white person holding white nationalist views is dangerous to me point blank. I don't care if you shot up a building full of people who are pale looking.....The act itself is the obvious factor but if you hold supremacist views you are doubly disturbing.

But you are missing the point.....I don't want a teacher willing to lie to the school about her or his white nationalist background simply because they want to infiltrate the school system. This is the same tactics they use to infiltrate police departments and the law system. I don't want any white nationalist who is a teacher armed, qualified or not. I'm sure you wouldn't want Quanell X who thinks the extermination of whites and Jews is a divine mandate teaching your kids right?

Not all white nationalists are gonna have a "record" of such belief. So, banning them from guns wont be that easy.

But hey, lets say i give you that point. Ok, arm the non white nationalist teachers then. Problem solved.

 

[Jollybear]

Actually, I haven't said you are wrong because you've never been in a shootout. I raised a number of questions about how this arming teachers thing is supposed to work, and you've dismissed those questions with... frankly, ridiculously implausible insouciance.

Ok, mayby i misunderstood your questions. But ive been hearing alot of

"Huh"?

"Wow" and just other brush off responses.

How about this. Give me your questions point straight and ill answer.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not all white nationalists are gonna have a "record" of such belief. So, banning them from guns wont be that easy.

But hey, lets say i give you that point. Ok, arm the non white nationalist teachers then. Problem solved.

The broader issues....
Are some beliefs grounds for denying the right to bear arms in some situations?
White nationalists, BLM, commies, Westboro Baptist Church members, etc.
Or should concealed carry in schools be based upon training, emotional stability,
& other politically independent factors?

 

[Jollybear]

The broader issues....
Are some beliefs grounds for denying the right to bear arms in some situations?
White nationalists, BLM, commies, Westboro Baptist Church members, etc.
Or should concealed carry in schools be based upon training, emotional stability,
& other politically independent factors?

I think personally a BELIEF that one mentally assents to, even if such belief is loonytoons, it dont mean the person perse is emotionally unstable or has mental illness.

Like the point above i made. Even though im not a white nationalist, i believe the human race is superior to animals, but i dont go out of my way to kill them.

In fact, i had a cat, despite my belief that i am superior to my cat, i actually loved and cared for my cat. I never beat her. I fed her and loved her.

Matter of fact, if someone came in and tried to kill my cat, id defend my cat.

All despite my belief that i am superior to my cat, lol.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Ok, mayby i misunderstood your questions. But ive been hearing alot of

"Huh"?

"Wow" and just other brush off responses.

How about this. Give me your questions point straight and ill answer.

schools struggle for funding for basic supplies, but now we're suddenly going to find money to arm teachers? And train them? AND insure them?

Not to mention most teachers already have a very full schedule, and we're going to expect them to find time to train up to, and stay current with, urban combat standards? Are we considering the cost of substitutes to cover all the class time such training will eat into?

Here's a big one; what's the protocol for when the cops show up? How do they tell the armed teachers from the active shooter(s)?

Reasonable, practical, full answers to these, please.

 

[Jollybear]

schools struggle for funding for basic supplies, but now we're suddenly going to find money to arm teachers? And train them? AND insure them?

Not to mention most teachers already have a very full schedule, and we're going to expect them to find time to train up to, and stay current with, urban combat standards? Are we considering the cost of substitutes to cover all the class time such training will eat into?

Here's a big one; what's the protocol for when the cops show up? How do they tell the armed teachers from the active shooter(s)?

Reasonable, practical, full answers to these, please.

Ok, the way im gonna answer this is like so:

Have the teachers train for a one time event. After that, no more paid training. They may or may not train refreshers on there own time. This keeps down the costs. The guns are a one time purchase, so tax payers wont need to keep on paying a higher cost.

And insurence, im still divided on whether they will even need that.

As for substitutes, wont be a need, because the teachers will have paid training, plus the training itself is paid. They can do there training on there days off until its completed. After its completed. The training is done, no more. They would have to complete X amount of hours. So, they could do some after school, or on days off, or a combination.

For the police to distinguish the teachers from the active shooter, have the teachers wear a symbol on them that the police will recognize.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

All teachers, no. Only ones who have had a significant amount of training and an extensive background check.

In most areas, the background check you need to pass to be a teacher is pretty darn extensive. At least here in Ontario, vulnerable sector screening (the check you need to work with kids, the elderly, and other vulnerable people) is much more stringent than the standard background check you'd need to pass for a firearm license.

Personally, I'd be fine with saying that someone who can't pass the sort of background check needed to get a gun shouldn't be supervising children at all and shouldn't be a teacher.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Here's a big one; what's the protocol for when the cops show up? How do they tell the armed teachers from the active shooter(s)?

Good guys wear white hats, bad guys wear black hats.

 

[Revoltingest]

In most areas, the background check you need to pass to be a teacher is pretty darn extensive. At least here in Ontario, vulnerable sector screening (the check you need to work with kids, the elderly, and other vulnerable people) is much more stringent than the standard background check you'd need to pass for a firearm license.

Personally, I'd be fine with saying that someone who can't pass the sort of background check needed to get a gun shouldn't be supervising children at all and shouldn't be a teacher.

Perhaps teacher background checks are thorough in some places, but I've seen otherwise.
I once had a manager whom I fired for sexual impropriety with customers, & for being just
too dumb for the job. Within a year, he was a teacher at a local public high school.
No one ever contacted me to check references or even verify employment.

 

[BSM1]

Platitudes aside, how does this help?

Well, no one ever thought about starting a gun fight when I was in high school...just sayin'.

 

[BSM1]

His motivation didn't have to be about race, but the fact that he aligned himself with a white nationalist organization and held racist views is dangerous enough. Not to mention his disdain for anti-fascism, and cops is equally disturbing. Any white person holding white nationalist views is dangerous to me point blank. I don't care if you shot up a building full of people who are pale looking.....The act itself is the obvious factor but if you hold supremacist views you are doubly disturbing.

But you are missing the point.....I don't want a teacher willing to lie to the school about her or his white nationalist background simply because they want to infiltrate the school system. This is the same tactics they use to infiltrate police departments and the law system. I don't want any white nationalist who is a teacher armed, qualified or not. I'm sure you wouldn't want Quanell X who thinks the extermination of whites and Jews is a divine mandate teaching your kids right?

Sooo...you think a crazed White Nationalist teacher bent on mayhem and destruction in a public school is not going to bring a gun to school just because it's "not allowed"? This has to ring a "DUH" bell in anyone's brain, don't you think?