Silver scrolls date to 600 BCE in the time period of the later day compilation of the Pentateuch, and contribute no evidence to the provenance of the Pentateuch
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Article, “Internal Proofs of Bible Authenticity”
- Thread starter Hockeycowboy
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- accuracy bible trustworthy
The Pentateuch is not meant to be "accurate history", any more than an article about academic archaeology or historical evidence is meant to instruct anyone about God.
a) I spent enough time in academia to know that there is always differing proof on any given subject, especially in areas like archeology or history.
b) Why do you on and on and on and on about this one subject? Speaking for myself, I don't care and I'm sure many others agree.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Just like many have twisted the Bible to make it seem “Jesus-is-God”, so they have with the soul, making people think the soul can die.
I am sorry to say that when you die you will find out that your soul did not die and you still have full consciousness in your new spiritual body.
You will be in Heaven and you will be shocked to find out that what you believed was not true, and that you will not be spending eternity on Earth, but rather in Heaven.
1 Corinthians 15 New International Version
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
This is no different from what Baha’is believe. We will have another kind of body after we die, a spiritual body.
“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.”
Please, enrich your knowledge by reading the Writings of Baha'u'llah, which is the latest Revelation from God, thus much more accurate than the Bible.
“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
“And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.”
First, those that wrote, compiled and edited the Pentateuch believed what they wrote and meant it to be actual history. The authors of the NT and the Church Fathers considered the Pentateuch historically accurate history.
Speak for your self, from 40-50% of Christians today believe in a literal or nearly literal Pentateuch. There beliefs involve rejecting rge academic archeology and history of the Middle East, and the sciences of evolution and the academic history of the earth, and contemporary cosmology,
The Doctrines of some churches require a literal interpretation of the Pentateuch as historically accurate.
I am responding to @Hockeycowboy who believes the above and I was responding to him not you.
Douay-Rheims Bible
You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh, for the dead, neither shall you make in yourselves any figures or marks: I am the Lord.
Catholic Public Domain Version
You shall not cut your flesh for the dead, and you shall not make other figures or marks on yourself. I am the Lord.
Now what does the text really say?
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
And you do not put a cutting for the soul in your flesh; and a writing, a cross-mark, you do not put on yourself; I [am] YHWH.
Young's Literal Translation
And a cutting for the soul ye do not put in your flesh; and a writing, a cross-mark, ye do not put on you; I am Jehovah.
Smith's Literal Translation
And ye shall not give an incision for the soul in your flesh, and a mark of stigma ye shall not give upon you: I Jehovah.
New Living Translation
The LORD said to Moses, “Give the following instructions to the priests, the descendants of Aaron. “A priest must not make himself ceremonially unclean by touching the dead body of a relative.
What does the text say in Hebrew?
Hebrew
Then the LORD
יְהוָה֙ (Yah·weh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's 3068: LORD -- the proper name of the God of Israel
said
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר (way·yō·mer)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 559: To utter, say
to
אֶל־ (’el-)
Preposition
Strong's 413: Near, with, among, to
Moses,
מֹשֶׁ֔ה (mō·šeh)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's 4872: Moses -- a great Israelite leader, prophet and lawgiver
“Speak
אֱמֹ֥ר (’ĕ·mōr)
Verb - Qal - Imperative - masculine singular
Strong's 559: To utter, say
to
אֶל־ (’el-)
Preposition
Strong's 413: Near, with, among, to
Aaron’s
אַהֲרֹ֑ן (’a·hă·rōn)
Noun - proper - masculine singular
Strong's 175: Aaron -- an elder brother of Moses
sons,
בְּנֵ֣י (bə·nê)
Noun - masculine plural construct
Strong's 1121: A son
the priests,
הַכֹּהֲנִ֖ים (hak·kō·hă·nîm)
Article | Noun - masculine plural
Strong's 3548: Priest
and tell
וְאָמַרְתָּ֣ (wə·’ā·mar·tā)
Conjunctive waw | Verb - Qal - Conjunctive perfect - second person masculine singular
Strong's 559: To utter, say
them:
אֲלֵהֶ֔ם (’ă·lê·hem)
Preposition | third person masculine plural
Strong's 413: Near, with, among, to
‘[A priest] is not
לֹֽא־ (lō-)
Adverb - Negative particle
Strong's 3808: Not, no
to defile himself
יִטַּמָּ֖א (yiṭ·ṭam·mā)
Verb - Hitpael - Imperfect - third person masculine singular
Strong's 2930: To be or become unclean
for a dead person
לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ (lə·ne·p̄eš)
Preposition-l | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's 5315: A soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion
among his people,
בְּעַמָּֽיו׃ (bə·‘am·māw)
Preposition-b | Noun - masculine plural construct | third person masculine singular
Strong's 5971: A people, a tribe, troops, attendants, a flock
Source:
Leviticus 21:1 - Holiness Required of Priests
Then the LORD said to Moses, Speak to Aaron's sons, the priests, and tell them that a priest is not to defile himself for a dead person among his people,
biblehub.com
It would be best if you checked the following Scriptures for yourself, please.
You know, I’d like to touch on one other thing: you said I’m like a little kiddie who wants a lollipop.
If that were true, I wouldn’t believe that the dead are dead. I don’t want to think that, about my Grandmother…. that she is not alive at this moment, right now.
It seems those who believe their dead loved ones are currently living somehow & somewhere, are the ones wanting the lollipop.
You raise some good questions.
I will address more of them, at a later time.
Unfortunately, the ancient Hebrew writings / manuscripts that comprise the Bible, were written on perishable materials, like papyri, and vellum.
(This was so that many copies could easily be made, for Israelites to read & keep in their homes. Chisel & stone, ie., longer-lasting material, just isn’t condusive for copies.)
Since the silver scrolls are exactly that - copies - we know they’re newer than the originals the words are based on.
When some other copies are found and they’re dated to 800 BCE, 1,000 BCE, or 1200 BCE, what will you do then? Accept it, I hope.
I guess that is one reason I love archeology; it uncovers what’s been hidden, history & truth.
Yes, you’re right.
Both are also translated as Hell.
Did you know Jacob said that, at his death, he was going to Hell?
— Genesis 37:35, Douay….
| 35 “And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son into hell, mourning.” |
If it was where the wicked go, and are tormented, why would the righteous man Jacob say he was going there? And that he thought his son, Joseph, was already there?
Job also prayed to God to go to hell, for protection from his suffering!
— Job 14:13,
Douay-Rheims Bible
“Who will grant me this, that thou mayest protect me in hell, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?”
Obviously, Hell has been used by religious leaders to scare people, a mistranslation from words that mean nothing of the sort.
Notice that Job also said that, after his death, there would be “a time” when he hoped Jehovah would “remember” him, meaning God would resurrect him.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Just because many translations use "hell" doesn't mean they are good translations. In Christianity, hell is a place of eternal torture and punishment. Sheol is nothing of the kind. It is simply the netherworld, the abode of the dead. When it is badly translated as hell, its meaning is lost. So no, Jacob did NOT say he was going to hell.
Exactly! That’s what I’m saying!
Yes, and they are wrong!
It is simply “the place of the dead”, “the common grave of mankind”!
When a person dies, they go to hell = the Grave. There is no awareness of anything in Sheol, or hell, the Grave of mankind.
Ecclesiastes tells us that everyone goes there @ death.
— Ecclesiastes 9:10…..”the place to which you (whoever reads it, good people and bad people alike) are going”
False, there is absolutely no evidence that Hebrews used these mediums. Egyptians widely used papyri and much of it survived, ALL the cultures of the region widely used stone and pottery, such as Stella mentioning Hebrews. There is no evidence of Hebrew scripture on any thing before 800 BCE, only scraps of pre-Canaanite text. Actually, the archaeological evidence shows an evolution of the gradual use of script from Phoenician/Canaanite text between 1000-600 BCE. Silver was widely available, No Silver scrolls have been found before 600 BCE.
In other cultures like Egyptian, and Babylonian texts on papyri have survived as old as 2450-2200 BCE.
Paper Timeline - From Early to Modern Paparmaking
Your basically admitting that that there is no text of any Hebrew writing before 800-600 BE and no evidence to Torah script before 600 BCE
Nothing is none to exist, The time period of 800-600 BCE allows for other possible copies.
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This line of reasoning of the interpretation of theological subjective concepts like "what is Hell," has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.
Article, “Internal Proofs of Bible Authenticity”
What the Bible lacks is provenance of source and a authorship, an not historically accurate based on the archeological, geologic and historical evidence. Nothing presented he contradicts this,
Internal evidence of any ancient document cannot independently justify itself.
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The translation of ancient languages (with often partial and/or conflicting sources) into English is not an easy task. It definitely can't be reduced to a one-to-one word equivalence without taking things such as context and how the ancient societies heard the words and interpreted them through their cultural "lens".
To a certain extent true, but question this generalization. This problem of the certainty and consistency of the beliefs in ancient tribal religions today with many varied conflicting interpretations between churches and religions. This goes further than just an attempt to interpret the text into not only English, but also the interpretation of texts in their ancient languages, The OFF TOPIC discussions of theological conflicting subjective beliefs reflect this problem
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Revelation 21:4
Revelation 21:4
Dear Trailblazer,
I am glad that you quoted Genesis 2:17
Jehovah simply said “ … for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” God didn’t provide any more details. If God had meant a spiritual death, shouldn’t He have explained that? He would have.
What kind of death did Adam and Eve see or were familiar with?
The only way Adam and Eve could have known about death is seeing animals die. A physical death!
Ecclesiastes 3:19,20 shows
19) … for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.
20) All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.
Psalm 115:17 states
The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 says
Whatever your hand find to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.
Please notice the words “any”, and “you”. That’s talking about people (the whole person), not just bodies.
Jehovah can remember people:
Malachi 3:16 points out
At that time those who fear Jehovah spoke with one another, each one with his own companion; and Jehovah kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance was written before HIM for those fearing Jehovah and for those meditating on his name.
More the next time. Thank you.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's true. The only way Adam and Eve could have known about death is seeing animals die a physical death, but that was a long time ago, before Jesus even talked about the water of life, which means being born again into spiritual life.
John 4:13-14 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Hopefully by now people can understand that those verses in Genesis 2 can have a spiritual meaning, signifying spiritual death.
And Adam and Eve did not die on the day that they ate the fruit from the tree. If that verse was about physical death it would make God a liar.
I believe that humans and animals all die and their bodies return to dust and after that they go to the spiritual world, but not necessarily go to the same place in the spiritual world.
Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
We know that these verses are referring to our physical bodies, since they say the dead and in the grave.
The soul/spirit does not die or get buried in the grave.
Of course God knows everyone who has ever lived, and everyone who will ever be born and live, but God does not have to remember anyone since for God does not exist in time, where there is a past, present and future. Rather, God is all-knowing, so God knows everything and everyone simultaneously.
clara17
Memorable member
What an ignorant statement. "the independent evidence confirms." Never in history has a shred of evidence "confirmed" any such thing.
But Robert Alter offers:
But from the tree of knowledge, good and evil, you shall not eat, for on the day you eat from it, you are doomed to die.
noting ...
16-17. surely eat ... doomed to die. The form of the Hebrew in both instances is what grammarians call the infinite absolute: the infinitive followed by a conjugated form of the same verb. The general effect of this repetition is to add emphasis to the verb, but because in the case the verb "to die" it is the pattern regularly used in the Bible for issuing death sentences, "doomed to die" is an appropriate equivalent.
No ancient scripture or writings can justify the validity of itself without independent evidence. The independent evidence confirms the Bible is not a reliable historical record.
Many references in many threads on this site has confirmed this. No Noah's Ark flood, No evidence for the Biblical Creation story and absolutely no text of the Pentateuch before 600 BCE.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Of course it has. Here is a very easy one. You surely do not read the Noah's Ark myth literally.
clara17
Memorable member
First of all you cant prove what didnt happen, only what did. Second of all just about every culture on earth has record of the flood
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
We sure can prove 1. that there has never been a global flood and 2. that the suggestions in teh Biblical account cannot have happened. The evidence for these things is so extensive and comes from so many different angles that the only rational conclusion is that the Biblical account is either completely made up, or at best is based on something historical that is has little resemblance to this final form.