Ask About Islam

[joelr]

That is your belief and I will not get into a debate with an athiest to prove my belief. You can criticize me all you want. But you will never be able to thwart my belief in Allah.

The thread is titled "Ask about Islam". Yet if one wants to discuss if there is actually any empirical evidence you cry persecution and run a false narrative. You seem to be programmed to do this because it's your only response? You came AT ME with evidence? You said to me "you must be joking"? I just used your own words back at you.
You engaged, criticized, and presented evidence. Then I respond to that post and when you cannot defend you change it to "oh I won't debate atheists, criticize me all you want blah....:"

I DO NOT CARE about your beliefs. I am discussing evidence. I am discussing it for people who care about what is true. No one has to care about truth. Anyone is free to follow things that have no evidence and are fiction. I am demonstrating these stories are not real. If they are there will be good evidence.

Allah says in the Quran
“And surely, We have created many of the jinn and mankind for Hell. They have hearts wherewith they understand not, and they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not (the truth). They are like cattle, nay even more astray; those! They are the heedless ones”
al-A’raaf 7:179

Yes and in the last post I demonstrated that the end of the world is indeed not a revelation from Allah but a borrowed Persian myth. So posting scripture isn't saying anything.
Allah didn't say anything. People wrote stuff down and claimed it was some angry sky-God who hates non-believers, Christians and Jews.
Yes, Jesus said the same things. So does Krishna. It's still made up by people.

If you don't believe in God, that is your problem, not ours

Not believing in a fictional character isn't a problem for me. The problem is getting sucked into a post where you say to ask about Islam, then you engage (even criticize with "you must be joking"), and I follow up and answer. Then when you cannot answer you pretend like I'm doing the criticizing and act like I care about what stories you choose to think are real?
Every time you get backed into a corner you play the victim? It's so obvious?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..in the last post I demonstrated that the end of the world is indeed not a revelation from Allah but a borrowed Persian myth..

That is your belief.
..rather than see the signs of G-d from previous cultures / prophets, you claim that it is all made up.

 

[joelr]

yada yada yada

The Quran is the book of Allah. He challenges mankind or anyone to come up with a book like it. He challenges you. But he warns you that you will not be able to and will fail and have consequences. If you think you know better, go ahead and try. Book is there. But oh yeah, do you even know arabic?

No I use the English translation. I am familiar with this tired apologetic however. No scholar who isn't a Muslim has ever made the claim the literary style is so good it must be divine. Never.

Ex-Muslim writers have commented however:
"
Many Arab philosophers in the golden era of the Islamic civilization debunked the claim that Quran is miraculous, some even went further to say that it is not the word of god and they were accused of being atheists. Ibn Sina (Avicenna) is a very good example. He was dubbed by Muslim scholars of the time as Shiekh Al Malaheda (Boss of Atheists) Avicenna's Philosophical Approach to the Qur'an in the Light of His "Tafsīr Sūrat al-Ikhlāṣ" / ﺍﻟﻤﻨﺤﻰ ﺍﻟﻔﻠﺴﻔﻲ ﻻﺑﻦ ﺳﻴﻨﺎ ﻓﻲ ﺩﺭﺍﺳﺔ ﺍﻟﻘﺮﺁﻥ ﻓﻲ ﺿﻮﺀ ﺗﻔﺴﻴﺮﻩ ﻟﺴﻮﺭﺓ ﺍﻹﺧﻼﺹ on JSTOR. Ibn Roshd (Averroes) witnessed the burning of his books and he was accused of being Kafer. The list goes on. These scholars and scientists, among others, are the source of pride for so many Muslims today, especially those who constantly contemplate the idea of reviving the Caliphate. I guess you see the irony here.

Old and modern scholars claim that the Nazim in Quran is unique and inimitable. I believe it is imitable. Since we know how the Nazim works, we can actually imitate it, but no one dares to do that. Here are some, anonymous of course, successful attempts:
Nevertheless, considering a literary work good or bad is a matter of taste. I think that the Jahili poetry (Pre-Islamic) is much more beautiful and much more meaningful than the Quran. It is my taste in literature. Others may have different experiences.

There is a mantra always repeated by Muslims when this subject is brought into debate, they say: “write something like it”. This argument is mentioned in Quran itself and has influence on the perception of many Muslims. But that argument is flawed. First, who can write like Shakespeare or Dickens? Today I can write a literary work and I can claim that god talked to me in the shower and recited those verses to me and they are miraculous verses. If you say this is nonsense, I would tell you: “well write something like it”. Can you write something like it? I doubt it. Second, let us assume for the sake of the argument that someone really did write something like it, who would decide that it is like it? who has that authority? It was said by the Quran that Muhammad is the last prophet to humanity, that debate is already settled my friend, there is no way you can write something like it, even if you managed to do that.

What is really disturbing to me in most of what I read in the responses to this question is the claim that the Quran impressed non-believers of the time. There is no shred of evidence which support this claim. There are actually many accounts from Islamic sources prove that many Arabs made fun of the language of Quran. Take Maslama Al Hanafi, a christian who also later claimed to be a prophet, who recited poems that tried to imitate Quran through satirizing its language. Maslama was killed by Abu Bakr’s Army in Al Yamama battle (Muslims call him, Mosaylma Al Kathab “the liar or the false prophet). History is written by the victor.


So that is debunked. The English version sounds rather angry at times. Awful doom, curse on Christians and Jews? Terrible?

Do you even understand the depth of the grammar used in arabic? hmm for someone to belittle what they don't even know ...tsk

Creating a literary work is not beyond the powers of a human. No scholar outside of Islam would say it's so miraculous that it "proves" it's a God dictation. Those apologetics are not supported by facts. Just as the scientific claims are debunked.

"Some hold that certain verses of the Qur'an contain scientific theories that have been discovered only in modern times, confirming Qur'an's miraculousness. This has been criticized by the scientific community. Critics argue that verses which allegedly explain modern scientific facts, about subjects such as biology, human evolution, the beginnings and origin of human life, or the history of Earth, for example, contain fallacies and are unscientific."

But also, the Quran thinks Moses and Noah were real. That is 100% that those are just myths. The majority of modern Christians now understand that the OT are not literal stories.

 

[joelr]

The Queen of England would disagree with you.

OK .. society has changed over the centuries. It makes no difference.
Basically, what you are saying is that a father shouldn't care who their daughters marry. That does not correlate with human nature.
Whilst young people shouldn't be forced to marry somebody they don't want to marry, there is no harm in wishing their daughters well, and making recommendations. A father has lived a lot longer than their children, and wishes them to have a happy, lasting relationship.
..not easy in these turbulent times, quite clearly.

No I'm saying even religious people changed the paramaters of something they considered sacred. Arranged marriages ended and the age went up to 18 because society changed. So marriage can also change among religious people to allow same sex marriage now that these things are accepted in society.

 

[joelr]

You need to look at all these metioned events in a relative context.
For 1000's of years, mankind lived a relatively simple life, with all nations having an "agricultural economy".
It is the aftermath of the Reformation in Europe i.e. the emergence of widespread financial institutions and the industrial revolution, that has massively accelerated the imbalance in the world that ends with climate-change, wars etc.

You can deny it as much as you like .. that won't change anything for the better.

There is more peace now than in any century. Technology has improved the quality of life. We are not headed for any end times. And if an end comes it has nothing to do with the Persian myth borrowed by Judaism, Christianity, Islam and others. There is no resurrections and heaven and final war. That is a Lord of the Rings style fantasy.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..the Quran thinks Moses and Noah were real. That is 100% that those are just myths. The majority of modern Christians now understand that the OT are not literal stories.

Well they would be wrong, in that case.

Taking something literally from the OT is problematic, as it is a collection of ancient scrolls, that have been revised / translated etc.
Its accuracy is in question.

Suggesting that Moses and Noah are fictitious is just going too far.
It can be shown that the Bible is inaccurate, but it is not possible to prove that certain people did not live thousands of years ago .. that is too big an ask to prove that !

 

[joelr]

That is your belief.
..rather than see the signs of G-d from previous cultures / prophets, you claim that it is all made up.

So the Greek myths are made up? But any myth that traces back to a religion you believe then it's God? That belief is not supported by evidence and is highly bias.


Revelations


but Zoroaster taught that the blessed must wait for this culmination till Frashegird and the 'future body' (Pahlavi 'tan i pasen'), when the earth will give up the bones of the dead (Y 30.7). This general resurrection will be followed by the Last Judgment, which will divide all the righteous from the wicked, both those who have lived until that time and those who have been judged already. Then Airyaman, Yazata of friendship and healing, together with Atar, Fire, will melt all the metal in the mountains, and this will flow in a glowing river over the earth. All mankind must pass through this river, and, as it is said in a Pahlavi text, 'for him who is righteous it will seem like warm milk, and for him who is wicked, it will seem as if he is walking in the • flesh through molten metal' (GBd XXXIV. r 8-r 9). In this great apocalyptic vision Zoroaster perhaps fused, unconsciously, tales of volcanic eruptions and streams of burning lava with his own experience of Iranian ordeals by molten metal; and according to his stern original teaching, strict justice will prevail then, as at each individual j udgment on earth by a fiery ordeal. So at this last ordeal of all the wicked will suffer a second death, and will perish off the face of the earth. The Daevas and legions of darkness will already have been annihilated in a last great battle with the Yazatas; and the river of metal will flow down into hell, slaying Angra Mainyu and burning up the last vestige of wickedness in the universe.

Ahura Mazda and the six Amesha Spentas will then solemnize a lt, spiritual yasna, offering up the last sacrifice (after which death wW be no more), and making a preparation of the mystical 'white haoma', which will confer immortality on the resurrected bodies of all the blessed, who will partake of it. Thereafter men will beome like the Immortals themselves, of one thought, word and deed, unaging, free from sickness, without corruption, forever joyful in the kingdom of God upon earth. For it is in this familiar and beloved world, restored to its original perfection, that, according to Zoroaster, eternity will be passed in bliss, and not in a remote insubstantial Paradise. So the time of Separation is a renewal of the time of Creation, except that no return is prophesied to the original uniqueness of living things. Mountain and valley will give place once more to level plain; but whereas in the beginning there was one plant, one animal, one man, the rich variety and number that have since issued from these will remain forever. Similarly the many divinities who were brought into being by Ahura Mazda will continue to have their separate existences. There is no prophecy of their re-absorption into the Godhead. As a Pahlavi text puts it, after Frashegird 'Ohrmaid and the Amahraspands and all Yazads and men will be together. .. ; every place will resemble a garden in spring, in which

there are all kinds of trees and flowers ... and it will be entirely the creation of Ohrrnazd' (Pahl.Riv.Dd. XLVIII, 99, lOO, l07).

 

[muhammad_isa]

We are not headed for any end times..

yeah, yeah .. so claims Trump and his supporters.
I don't believe it. I can see the seriousness of what mankind faces.

i.e. Russia/China v. Europe/US v. climate-change v. religious-disbelief

 

[KWED]

Well they would be wrong, in that case.

Taking something literally from the OT is problematic, as it is a collection of ancient scrolls, that have been revised / translated etc.
Its accuracy is in question.

Suggesting that Moses and Noah are fictitious is just going too far.
It can be shown that the Bible is inaccurate, but it is not possible to prove that certain people did not live thousands of years ago .. that is too big an ask to prove that !

I think you misunderstand.
The issue isn't that there were not historical characters on whom the myths may have been built (just like Jesus and Muhammad). It is that the magical events described around them did not happen. For example, the story of Noah has so many factual and logical inconsistencies and errors that it is beyond any doubt that it could not have happened.
Was there a person in ancient Mesopotamia who anticipated a flood (floods were common in the region and feature in many regional myth and legend) and built a boat or raft for his family and their livestock? Very possibly. Were people impressed by this and told stories about it? Very likely. Does that make the Biblical story of Noah true? Certainly not.

Whatever the claim, there always seems to be a more reasonable, rational explanation than a god for whom there is no evidence or rational explanation.

 

[KWED]

That is your belief.
..rather than see the signs of G-d from previous cultures / prophets, you claim that it is all made up.

If you accept that "the signs from god" are actually from earlier, pagan belief systems, then you cannot claim that they are "signs" from your god. That subsequent suggests that the Quran itself is not "from god" but from earlier beliefs and customs.

 

[KWED]

yada yada yada

Top debating skillz sis.

The Quran is the book of Allah.

A claim that does not stand up to examination.

He challenges mankind or anyone to come up with a book like it.

A meaningless challenge, as literary assessment is subjective.
Who will judge if a book is "better"? Certainly Muslims cannot as their very faith depends on every challenger failing.
The challenger? They wouldn't present a book if they didn't believe it was better?
Me? There are many books that are better than the Quran in every context, in my opinion.
So, where does that leave us? You believe the challenge has not been met. Others believe it has. As I said - meaningless.

He challenges you. But he warns you that you will not be able to and will fail and have consequences. If you think you know better, go ahead and try. Book is there. But oh yeah, do you even know arabic? Do you even understand the depth of the grammar used in arabic? hmm for someone to belittle what they don't even know ...tsk

I have already produced a book better than the Quran, in Classical Arabic. I simply removed the references to using female slaves or captives for sex from the old Quran, and bingo, a new and better Quran.
I challenge you to explain why my Quran is not better than Allah's. But you won't, because you can't.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If you accept that "the signs from god" are actually from earlier, pagan belief systems, then you cannot claim that they are "signs" from your god. That subsequent suggests that the Quran itself is not "from god" but from earlier beliefs and customs.

Well, it is often a mish-mash..

eg. the ka'aba in Macca was established by Ishmael, peace be with him, but over time idolatry crept in to the Maccan culture.
The same goes with Persia etc.

 

[Sheldon]

Ironically its like what you said to someone else before:

KWED said: ↑
So just to be clear... if you are in a lecture about Middle Eastern history and a world renowned professor (who is also an atheist) in the subject explains the historical issues around the conquest of Mecca - if the person sitting next to you (who is a Muslim but with no qualifications in Middle Eastern history) says "that's rubbish", you will believe him and reject the professor's lecture?
Really?

Just like saying "thats rubbish" would be a nonsense response.
Its a statement but where is the sense in it? It has none.

Of course it makes sense, it was in response to a poster the making the asinine claim he would believe any Muslim over any atheist any day of the week. It was that claim that makes no sense, since being a Muslim doesn't necessarily make one more erudite on any topic than anyone else, the claim was pure bigotry, and KWED illustrated perfectly why it was nonsensical. If you were seriously ill one assumes you would seek the advice and treatment of a qualified doctor, what if only atheist doctors were available? Would you shun an atheist doctor in favour of a Muslim with no medical training whatsoever? It's hard to believe anyone would be so stupid, yet that is precisely what another poster was claiming.

 

[KWED]

Well, it is often a mish-mash..

eg. the ka'aba in Macca was established by Ishmael, peace be with him, but over time idolatry crept in to the Maccan culture.
The same goes with Persia etc.

Different issue. You were talking about Arab pagans knowing the signs from the god of the Quran, clearly showing that Islam took some of its beliefs and practices from earlier religions. Ritual washing before five daily prayers is another example. This came from Zoroastrianism.
BTW, there is zero archaeological or textual evidence for anything where Mecca is today that dates more than 2000 years. Certainly not the Kaaba itself.

 

[KWED]

yeah, yeah .. so claims Trump and his supporters.

Ironically, many of Trump's supporters on the religious right do believe we are headed for end times.

I don't believe it. I can see the seriousness of what mankind faces.
i.e. Russia/China v. Europe/US v. climate-change v. religious-disbelief

So you claim that "end times" only involves understood natural processes that may lead to substantial changes in society, and not religious mythology involving magic and demons.

 

[joelr]

Well they would be wrong, in that case.

Taking something literally from the OT is problematic, as it is a collection of ancient scrolls, that have been revised / translated etc.
Its accuracy is in question.

Suggesting that Moses and Noah are fictitious is just going too far.
It can be shown that the Bible is inaccurate, but it is not possible to prove that certain people did not live thousands of years ago .. that is too big an ask to prove that !

The Moses story contains almost all older Egyptian myths, right from the birth narrative on th eriver.

Moses[note 1] (/ˈmoʊzɪz, -zɪs/)[2] is considered the most important prophet in Judaism[
Moses - Wikipedia

Generally, Moses is seen as a legendary figure,
...firmly based in Israel's corporate memory to be dismissed as pious fiction.[64]
according to William G. Dever, the modern scholarly consensus is that the biblical person of Moses is largely mythical while also holding that "a Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C."


Modern science has ruled out a world flood,
The Noah story is a copy of the Mesopotamian flood epic from centuries earlier, as is all of Genesis. The evidence on this is clear. I get that there are people who believe alien abductions, Big Foot and world flood myths. I don't care, I'm interested in what the evidence shows. What people want to be true doesn't matter. I am interested in what is true and what can be demonstrated.
One religion claims their flood story is real and another claims theirs is real while science show they are all fake, Comparative mythology also. Why people want to take the word of what they were told growing up is beyond me. But whatever, people are going to believe anything they want. I'm just discussing evidence.

Flood geology - Wikipedia the section called
Modern geology and flood geology explains the reasons a world flood could not have happened.

Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia
The Genesis creation narrative is the creation myth[a] of both Judaism and Christianity.[
It expounds themes parallel to those in Mesopotamian mythology, emphasizing the Israelite people's belief in one God.
Scholars do not consider Genesis to be historically accurate.
Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology,
Genesis 1–11 as a whole is imbued with Mesopotamian myths.
Genesis 2 has close parallels with a second Mesopotamian myth, the Atra-Hasis epic


Noah - Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned


Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned I loosed a dove and let her go. She flew away, but finding no resting- place she returned.


Noah - And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.


Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;


Noah - And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;


Gimamesh - , I made a sacrifice and poured out a libation on the mountain top. Seven and again seven cauldrons I set up on their stands, I heaped up wood and cane and cedar and myrtle. When the gods smelled the sweet savour, they gathered like flies over the sacrifice.


Noah - The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.


Gimamesh - “Wisest of gods, hero Enlil, how could you so senselessly bring down the flood? Lay upon the sinner his sin, Lay upon the transgressor his transgression, Punish him a little when he breaks loose, Do not drive him too hard or he perishes; Would that a lion had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that a wolf had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that famine had wasted the world Rather than the flood, Would that pestilence had wasted mankind Rather than the flood


Gilamesh - ‘For six days and six nights the winds blew, torrent and tempest and flood overwhelmed the world, tempest and flood raged together like warring hosts. When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;


Noah - And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

 

[MyM]

The thread is titled "Ask about Islam". Yet if one wants to discuss if there is actually any empirical evidence you cry persecution and run a false narrative. You seem to be programmed to do this because it's your only response? You came AT ME with evidence? You said to me "you must be joking"? I just used your own words back at you.
You engaged, criticized, and presented evidence. Then I respond to that post and when you cannot defend you change it to "oh I won't debate atheists, criticize me all you want blah....:"

I DO NOT CARE about your beliefs. I am discussing evidence. I am discussing it for people who care about what is true. No one has to care about truth. Anyone is free to follow things that have no evidence and are fiction. I am demonstrating these stories are not real. If they are there will be good evidence.



Yes and in the last post I demonstrated that the end of the world is indeed not a revelation from Allah but a borrowed Persian myth. So posting scripture isn't saying anything.
Allah didn't say anything. People wrote stuff down and claimed it was some angry sky-God who hates non-believers, Christians and Jews.
Yes, Jesus said the same things. So does Krishna. It's still made up by people.




Not believing in a fictional character isn't a problem for me. The problem is getting sucked into a post where you say to ask about Islam, then you engage (even criticize with "you must be joking"), and I follow up and answer. Then when you cannot answer you pretend like I'm doing the criticizing and act like I care about what stories you choose to think are real?
Every time you get backed into a corner you play the victim? It's so obvious?

You aren't asking to understand. I was sincere when I opened this thread for anyone who wants to learn about Islam. For those who ask on account NOT TO LEARN...which is mainly your objective-to criticize, then it is a losing battle for you and for the thread. Athiests like to try and dominate and take over a religious thread to show and ridicule. It has been proven on many accounts. If I don't want to answer you, I will not and you can criticize all you want.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Modern science has ruled out a world flood,
The Noah story is a copy of the Mesopotamian flood epic from centuries earlier, as is all of Genesis. The evidence on this is clear. I get that there are people who believe alien abductions, Big Foot and world flood myths. I don't care, I'm interested in what the evidence shows. What people want to be true doesn't matter. I am interested in what is true and what can be demonstrated.
One religion claims their flood story is real and another claims theirs is real while science show they are all fake, Comparative mythology also. Why people want to take the word of what they were told growing up is beyond me. But whatever, people are going to believe anything they want. I'm just discussing evidence.

Flood geology - Wikipedia the section called
Modern geology and flood geology explains the reasons a world flood could not have happened.

Genesis creation narrative - Wikipedia
The Genesis creation narrative is the creation myth[a] of both Judaism and Christianity.[
It expounds themes parallel to those in Mesopotamian mythology, emphasizing the Israelite people's belief in one God.
Scholars do not consider Genesis to be historically accurate.
Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology,
Genesis 1–11 as a whole is imbued with Mesopotamian myths.
Genesis 2 has close parallels with a second Mesopotamian myth, the Atra-Hasis epic


Noah - Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned


Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned I loosed a dove and let her go. She flew away, but finding no resting- place she returned.


Noah - And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.


Gilamesh - When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;


Noah - And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake;


Gimamesh - , I made a sacrifice and poured out a libation on the mountain top. Seven and again seven cauldrons I set up on their stands, I heaped up wood and cane and cedar and myrtle. When the gods smelled the sweet savour, they gathered like flies over the sacrifice.


Noah - The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.


Gimamesh - “Wisest of gods, hero Enlil, how could you so senselessly bring down the flood? Lay upon the sinner his sin, Lay upon the transgressor his transgression, Punish him a little when he breaks loose, Do not drive him too hard or he perishes; Would that a lion had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that a wolf had ravaged mankind Rather than the flood, Would that famine had wasted the world Rather than the flood, Would that pestilence had wasted mankind Rather than the flood


Gilamesh - ‘For six days and six nights the winds blew, torrent and tempest and flood overwhelmed the world, tempest and flood raged together like warring hosts. When the seventh day dawned the storm from the south subsided, the sea grew calm, the flood was stilled;


Noah - And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

I've already said that Genesis is inaccurate, imo.
It is ancient, and it is not difficult to understand how it can have changed over time.

It is an exaggeration to imagine that the flood covered the whole globe.
When the flood occurred, it wouldn't be even known that the world was round.

 

[joelr]

You aren't asking to understand. I was sincere when I opened this thread for anyone who wants to learn about Islam. For those who ask on account NOT TO LEARN...which is mainly your objective-to criticize, then it is a losing battle for you and for the thread. Athiests like to try and dominate and take over a religious thread to show and ridicule. It has been proven on many accounts. If I don't want to answer you, I will not and you can criticize all you want.

And you are still going. You are the one name calling.
My objective is to learn, evaluating evidence IS LEARNING. This is pretty clear that you only want people who are already indoctrinated.
It is never a losing battle to review evidence. Because it demonstrates critical thinking.
I have yet to see any proof beyond apologetics that do not stand up to examination. The science claims were completely destroyed. I'm open to actual evidence. Again, it's not ridicule, it's looking at evidence. If your religion and feelings are so weak that they cannot withstand evaluating evidence then that says it all. It has been completely debunked.

If you don't want to answer, don't? I haven't criticized you, stop being so sensitive? I have criticized the evidence because it is flawed. This is the purpose of the debates? Apparently you cannot handle a simple debate because you keep freaking out and claiming ridicule? Actually you claim ridicule then you attack atheists and make accusations?
"Athiests like to try and dominate and take over a religious thread to show and ridicule."

I'm commenting on evidence and it's YOU who are judging and insulting?

You may think that people should just believe stories without evidence and then come in here and be all "please tell me how great and correct your religion is...." I prefer critical thinking.

then it is a losing battle for you and for the thread.

Every manipulation tactic in the book. Now you speak for the thread. Critical thinking is never a losing battle. There are people on the thread who are interested so it isn't a loss. If looking at evidence of Islam is a loss then why can't you seem to just present evidence that cannot easily be debunked? Your personal beliefs are not evidence and are not the goal of the discussion. You can believe any story you want, all day. I'm looking at evidence for anyone who cares about what is actually true. Not just claimed to be true.

 

[joelr]

I've already said that Genesis is inaccurate, imo.
It is ancient, and it is not difficult to understand how it can have changed over time.

It is an exaggeration to imagine that the flood covered the whole globe.
When the flood occurred, it wouldn't be even known that the world was round.

Well the subject was Moses and Noah. I'm with scholarship that they are literary creations. There are hundreds of flood stories going back to the first city Sumer. But the Genesis version, or Genesis entirely looks to have been written later, possibly after the Babylonian exile around 6B.C. when they would have encountered the Gilamesh flood story and the other creation myths.