Ask About Islam

[ppp]

Sure, I accept, but not Islam

The infallibility of one's belief system is the most dangerous and toxic aspect of religious beliefs. Or any belief. Including, Islam.

 

[KWED]

Sure, I accept, but not Islam

Sounds like selective denial.
I showed examples of Islamic belief causing harm.

I forgot what we were talking about here, but...

I said ... "But Islam does tell you to harm other people under certain circumstances (perhaps not you personally, but certainly "Muslim authorities"). And Allah harms billions of people every day."
You asked for an example.
I gave it.

The first example, you didn't copy/paste right (Maybe a mistake, or you are a dishonest person)

I was paraphrasing from memory.

2 conditions must be present for that ruling (highlighted below)

Now, here I will assume that you are ill-informed rather than dishonest...

"Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and spread mischief in the land is death, crucifixion, cutting off their hands and feet on opposite sides, or exile from the land. This ˹penalty˺ is a disgrace for them in this world, and they will suffer a tremendous punishment in the Hereafter."

Firstly, there is no specification for both "crimes" to be committed for the punishment to be imposed - but even if there were, they amount to the same thing. Ibn Kathir describes both "waging war against Allah and Muhammad" and "spreading mischief" to include "disbelief and acts of disobedience".

Secondly, why is that relevant? You asked for an example of Islamic texts telling people to harm other people under certain circumstances. I gave you a clear and unequivocal example of the Quran telling Muslims that the punishment for certain acts is to be tortured to death. So presumably you now concede my point.

In the Islamic estate, the prophet was considered as the president
let me ask you a question; What will happen now if someone wages war against the president and spread corruption in your country?

They are certainly not tortured to death. They are not even killed.

Also, it says "wage war against Allah". Allah has no physical presence in this world so it is impossible to fight him, therefore it is referring to the idea of Allah, his message and his laws. Therefore the passage is referring to people opposing the idea of Islam. This is confirmed by Ibn Kathir who explains that it includes "opposition, contradiction and disbelief".

Your second example is if people commit adultery in the privacy of their homes, no one can punish them, no one is allowed to spy on them, but, if they took it to the public in an islamic state, that goes against the rules of the state and the law must be applied

Again, I will assume you are just ill-informed, but there is no stipulation on location for the offence. In Islam, fornication is not permitted if done behind closed doors. The punishment is the same wherever it takes place, if the person is found guilty.

Your third example, that is not in this life, since you don't believe in that, there is nothing to worry about

But you do believe it. So you therefore approve of Allah torturing billions of people. Remember that you claim and that Islam does not permit harming people. I gave you three examples of Islam causing people to be harmed. You defence that the harm is justified or imaginary to non-Muslims is irrelevant.

"Ramadan fasting is safe and healthy provided that overall food and water intake is adequate,

I gave you several medical sources showing that dry fasting does not provide adequate water.
If Muslims are allowed to drink water during the day then it is reasonably healthy, as long as there is no bingeing on high carb and fat foods at night.

It is a very simple. If I went to a doctor and said I was going to drink nothing all day, for a month, they would advise against it. It is only when the religious element is introduced that doctors sometimes seem to feel uncomfortable about giving their honest, professional opinion.

 

[RAYYAN]

The infallibility of one's belief system is the most dangerous and toxic aspect of religious beliefs. Or any belief. Including, Islam.

Sorry,
I don't understand what this sentence mean

 

[ppp]

Sorry,
I don't understand what this sentence mean

Sure.
One of the most harmful things about religion is when the adherents believe that properly following the tenets, doctrines and/or practices of their religion has never, and can never, result in immoral or detrimental or catastrophic actions. When someone sees themselves as instruments of an infallible system they can justify any action or any result as a proper part of their god's plan. And they are wrong to do so.

 

[RAYYAN]

Sounds like selective denial.
I showed examples of Islamic belief causing harm.

And I replied to those examples. If you don't like my reply, then.....

I was paraphrasing from memory.

Fair enough

Now, here I will assume that you are ill-informed rather than dishonest...

Firstly, there is no specification for both "crimes" to be committed for the punishment to be imposed - but even if there were, they amount to the same thing. Ibn Kathir describes both "waging war against Allah and Muhammad" and "spreading mischief" to include "disbelief and acts of disobedience".

There is a specification. The word AND makes that. It is a simple English

Secondly, why is that relevant? You asked for an example of Islamic texts telling people to harm other people under certain circumstances. I gave you a clear and unequivocal example of the Quran telling Muslims that the punishment for certain acts is to be tortured to death. So presumably you now concede my point.

Isn't that the case with capital punishment? and other punishments that is enforced by law?
The Quran is a constitution

They are certainly not tortured to death. They are not even killed.

The punishment of treason is death

Also, it says "wage war against Allah". Allah has no physical presence in this world so it is impossible to fight him, therefore it is referring to the idea of Allah, his message and his laws. Therefore the passage is referring to people opposing the idea of Islam. This is confirmed by Ibn Kathir who explains that it includes "opposition, contradiction and disbelief".

I never denied that
It is waging war against the constitution and law of the land when the land is an Islamic state

Again, I will assume you are just ill-informed, but there is no stipulation on location for the offence. In Islam, fornication is not permitted if done behind closed doors. The punishment is the same wherever it takes place, if the person is found guilty.

That is Islam 101
You just don't understand it

But you do believe it. So you therefore approve of Allah torturing billions of people. Remember that you claim and that Islam does not permit harming people. I gave you three examples of Islam causing people to be harmed. You defence that the harm is justified or imaginary to non-Muslims is irrelevant.

Yes, but here is not religion telling me to harm people, it is between God and people after they die
Isn't your whole point that religion is telling me to harm people!

I gave you several medical sources showing that dry fasting does not provide adequate water.
If Muslims are allowed to drink water during the day then it is reasonably healthy, as long as there is no bingeing on high carb and fat foods at night.

It is a very simple. If I went to a doctor and said I was going to drink nothing all day, for a month, they would advise against it. It is only when the religious element is introduced that doctors sometimes seem to feel uncomfortable about giving their honest, professional opinion.

It is very simple too
Not drinking water from sunrise to sunset
I gave you wiki link that says it is ok
Change your doctor

 

[RAYYAN]

Sure.
One of the most harmful things about religion is when the adherents believe that properly following the tenets, doctrines and/or practices of their religion has never, and can never, result in immoral or detrimental or catastrophic actions. When someone sees themselves as instruments of an infallible system they can justify any action or any result as a proper part of their god's plan. And they are wrong to do so.

I hear this a lot, but in reality, it doesn't make sense because.....
If I believe that there is any kind of immorality in my religion, I won't belong to it in the first place. So, it makes perfect sense to believe the way I believe

 

[ppp]

I hear this a lot, but in reality, it doesn't make sense because.....
If I believe that there is any kind of immorality in my religion, I won't belong to it in the first place. So, it makes perfect sense to believe the way I believe

You're basically saying that because you don't believe there's any immorality in your religion that there's not any immorality in your religion. Can you be wrong? And how would you tell if you were the wrong one, or or your religion?

I would also point bout that people are born into systems that have both moral and immoral standards. Standards that they don't question until they are forced to do so. Just because you're born into a system that you think is moral doesn't mean that it actually is. And the way that religion works is that there is a top-down standard for morality where if you deviate from the prescribed path then there are familial, social, and legal penalties. Not to mention suffering for all of eternity. So there is a lots of incentive to go along; lest you burn forever, or at the very least lose your friends, family and society.

 

[KWED]

And I replied to those examples. If you don't like my reply, then.....

I explained why your reply was flawed.
If you think my response was flawed, feel free to explain how. That's how debate works. You don't make assertions and just leave them hanging as though everyone has to accept them.

There is a specification. The word AND makes that. It is a simple English

That does not necessarily mean the two must go together.

Q: "What matches were on Saturday?"
A: "Man U v Spurs and Brighton v Liverpool"

Did I watch both? No I didn't. I only watched one. I could have watched both, but I didn't.

Isn't that the case with capital punishment? and other punishments that is enforced by law?
The Quran is a constitution

Indeed. And the Quran requires harm to be done to people under certain circumstances. You claimed that it didn't.

The punishment of treason is death

No it isn't.
And why have you brought "treason" into it? The Quran doesn't mention treason.

I never denied that
It is waging war against the constitution and law of the land when the land is an Islamic state

So you admit that Islam prescribes death for those who oppose Islamic rule.
So why the earlier claims that Islam doesn't harm anyone.

That is Islam 101
You just don't understand it

You claimed that people can only be flogged for fornicating in public. You were wrong.
But again, you did admit that Islam instructs people found guilty of fornication to be tortured.

Yes, but here is not religion telling me to harm people, it is between God and people after they die
Isn't your whole point that religion is telling me to harm people!

We have established both.
Islam as a religion tells people to harm other people under certain circumstances.
Allah, as the very essence of Islam, tortures billions of people for eternity.

It is very simple too
Not drinking water from sunrise to sunset
I gave you wiki link that says it is ok

What are you on about?
I provided several medical sources saying it is not healthy to not drink any fluids all day.
You provided one source saying saying fasting is not unhealthy as long as you drink sufficient fluids.

Change your doctor

If you are dying, finding a doctor who will tell you you are not dying will not save you.

So, basically we have the situation where all your claims have been refuted in detail but you still keep making them.
Religion in a nutshell.

 

[KWED]

I hear this a lot, but in reality, it doesn't make sense because.....
If I believe that there is any kind of immorality in my religion, I won't belong to it in the first place. So, it makes perfect sense to believe the way I believe

Jeez.
That's the point. People are so invested in their belief that cognitive dissonance removes any feeling of discomfort. Its why devout ideologues can commit terrible atrocities and believe their are morally justified.
You've just tried to defend and justify torturing people for consensual, adult sex. Why? Because god told you to.
You believe first, then that belief is used to justify any behaviour.
You will even try to defend and justify execution by torture, something that is universally condemned and outlawed as abhorrent by all civilised people and societies.
You even claim to understand why such behaviour is irrational, but you fail to recognise it in yourself.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You know, when people shout things like "Oi, genius!" at you, there is often irony at play.

Do you think people calling me a genius was sarcasm?

Teachers had a meeting about me in high school then allowed me to continue drawing pictures in class because I was the top student in exams and wasnt disturbing the class.

You also get called a genius by thinking of solutions to problems.

My father was hard on me. He would be watching me doing something and ask is a better way of doing that. So thats how I try to think about everything I do.



This Atheist said couldnt tell if I'm a genius, crazy, or a crazy genius.

I can’t tell if you’re as genius, crazy, or a crazy genius. Let’s start with the wheel. How are the different categories assigned and how are the animals assigned within them? Is there something you have online that could give me a visual representation so I can understand better? Thanks in advance for your patience.

I thought that was a fair assessment.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Let me know when you manage either.

I want to know what you think.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Man's a genius, don't you know. People keep telling him. If we can't understand what he's saying it is clearly our substandard intellect that is the problem.

Am I being taken seriously?

I watched a friend do an IQ test with results over 140 and I saw what she got wrong.
I doubted IQ tests as a measurement of intelligence.
The IQ test shows the ability to recognise patterns.

 

[KWED]

Do you think people calling me a genius was sarcasm?

Teachers had a meeting about me in high school then allowed me to continue drawing pictures in class because I was the top student in exams and wasnt disturbing the class.

You also get called a genius by thinking of solutions to problems.

My father was hard on me. He would be watching me doing something and ask is a better way of doing that. So thats how I try to think about everything I do.

This Atheist said couldnt tell if I'm a genius, crazy, or a crazy genius.

I thought that was a fair assessment.

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

BTW, coming up with a complex and arcane explanation for why the sun orbits the earth, or dogs have six legs (for example) is not "genius". It is "delusional".

 

[KWED]

Am I being taken seriously?

Absolutely.

I watched a friend do an IQ test with results over 140 and I saw what she got wrong.

Of course you did.

I doubted IQ tests as a measurement of intelligence.
The IQ test shows the ability to recognise patterns.

Wow! You must be a genius because no one has ever noticed that before.

 

[RAYYAN]

You're basically saying that because you don't believe there's any immorality in your religion that there's not any immorality in your religion. Can you be wrong? And how would you tell if you were the wrong one, or or your religion?

I would also point bout that people are born into systems that have both moral and immoral standards. Standards that they don't question until they are forced to do so. Just because you're born into a system that you think is moral doesn't mean that it actually is. And the way that religion works is that there is a top-down standard for morality where if you deviate from the prescribed path then there are familial, social, and legal penalties. Not to mention suffering for all of eternity. So there is a lots of incentive to go along; lest you burn forever, or at the very least lose your friends, family and society.

No, that is not what I am saying
What I am saying is, I belong to this religion because I don't find any immorality in it. Once I found one, I will be the first to leave it.

Let's talk about suffering for all eternity, If that is true, and there is God who does that, God who created us, who am I to say anything or what he does with his creation! Even if I wanted to, can I do something! in that case, we don't really have a say.
BTW - I don't believe in the eternity thing and I have a good reason for it

 

[ppp]

What I am saying is, I belong to this religion because I don't find any immorality in it. Once I found one, I will be the first to leave it.

Is your criteria for what is moral and what is not moral based in your religion? If so, then you have no method for ever discovering immorality in your religion.

Let's talk about suffering for all eternity, If that is true, and there is God who does that, God who created us, who am I to say anything or what he does with his creation!

You are you to say. That is sufficient.

Even if I wanted to, can I do something! in that case, we don't really have a say.

That is irrelevant. If parents decide to rape and torture their baby, the child doesn't have a say either. Not having a say does not change the fact that the parents' actions are immoral.

BTW - I don't believe in the eternity thing and I have a good reason for it

Ok.

 

[RAYYAN]

I explained why your reply was flawed.
If you think my response was flawed, feel free to explain how. That's how debate works. You don't make assertions and just leave them hanging as though everyone has to accept them.

LOL - that is funny

That does not necessarily mean the two must go together.

Q: "What matches were on Saturday?"
A: "Man U v Spurs and Brighton v Liverpool"

Did I watch both? No I didn't. I only watched one. I could have watched both, but I didn't.

Very bad example dude
You know you are wrong

Indeed. And the Quran requires harm to be done to people under certain circumstances. You claimed that it didn't.

I was not anticipating that you are going to twist my words
Shame on you

No it isn't.
And why have you brought "treason" into it? The Quran doesn't mention treason.

Yes, it is. Read more on Wikipedia. Do you always lie to win the debate or you just don't know?

So you admit that Islam prescribes death for those who oppose Islamic rule.
So why the earlier claims that Islam doesn't harm anyone.

Again with twisting my words
There are different types of punishments depending on the crime including death (Capital punishment)
re-read the verse you quoted

You claimed that people can only be flogged for fornicating in public. You were wrong.
But again, you did admit that Islam instructs people found guilty of fornication to be tortured.

Show me where I claimed that and stop with the lies

We have established both.
Islam as a religion tells people to harm other people under certain circumstances.
Allah, as the very essence of Islam, tortures billions of people for eternity.

We have established that any constitution in the world tells people to harm others for certain crimes. Why go bananas on Islam!
Eternity! that is debatable

What are you on about?
I provided several medical sources saying it is not healthy to not drink any fluids all day.
You provided one source saying saying fasting is not unhealthy as long as you drink sufficient fluids.

Sure
I will let Dr. Eric Berg tell you all about it

(It is ok to do dry fasting for a day)
Are you educated yet?

If you are dying, finding a doctor who will tell you you are not dying will not save you.

So, basically we have the situation where all your claims have been refuted in detail but you still keep making them.
Religion in a nutshell.

That is what you think LOL
but again, that is your opinion and it doesn't hurt me because simply in order for me to be hurt, I have to value your opinion in the first place

 

[RAYYAN]

Is your criteria for what is moral and what is not moral based in your religion? If so, then you have no method for ever discovering immorality in your religion.

No, it is doing what is right

You are you to say. That is sufficient.

You are right here - I accept

That is irrelevant. If parents decide to rape and torture their baby, the child doesn't have a say either. Not having a say does not change the fact that the parents' actions are immoral.

Well, there is a difference here. Parents don't own their children
But, if there is God who created people he owns them

 

[ppp]

No, it is doing what is right

Are you being funny? Or are you unaware that you didn't answer the question?

You are right here - I accept

If you knew that you are who is to say, why did you ask? This seems like another quip as an evasion.

Well, there is a difference here. Parents don't own their children
But, if there is God who created people he owns them

No. If there is a god who created people, he does not own them.

 

[RAYYAN]

Are you being funny? Or are you unaware that you didn't answer the question?

You asked about my criteria, I said do what is right. I don't know how I didn't answer the question

If you knew that you are who is to say, why did you ask? This seems like another quip as an evasion.

Creating conversation. Aren't you a social person!

No. If there is a god who created people, he does not own them.

Yes, he does
He can do whatever he wants with you
He can even come up with a certificate of ownership
If you don't like that, it is irrelevant
How do you determine ownership