Steve said:
Hi angellous_evangellous, thats an interesting view.
Ok.
However it leaves me wondering a few things regarding such a view
where does it leave personal repentants etc that Christ emphasised so much esspecially if one personally dosnt think they need Christ or have sinned?
I don't know where you got this from reading my response. My view on the cross does not exclude personal repentance. We need Christ personally as the community is made up of individuals.
How do Jesus's warnings such as "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Mathew 7:13-14 fit in?
I can't see how this applies to my response, either.
What about our sin being punished in hell, Christ spoke and warned more about hell then he spoke about heaven.
I guess we had better be good then.
Does Christs sacrifice apply to those who reject him and instead live for themselves and sin etc.
Romans 8-9
Also when you talk about individualistic thought regarding believing and being saved, how else do you suppose we can believe? I cant believe for someone else and have them saved - we are only in control of ourselves not others in regards to what choose etc.
That's true. You can only believe for yourself, but you are not alone. The highly individualized Protestants say, "If you were the only one, X would die for you..." (boo-hoo-hoo). The fact of the matter is, the cross event is so important that X draws all humans to his sacrafice to redeem everyone. The hope for the entire world is centered on the cross of Christ. Also, you do not believe alone. Everyone approaches the cross together, it is the community, the Church that believes in Christ. No one believes alone.
Secondly, belief in Christ is not an individual choice. God gives the faith needed, and God chooses who will be saved. In the end (and the beginning, it is all the choice of God). Many who said Lord, Lord, will be judged; and many who rejected Christ will receive God's mercy.
18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26"And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
And when you say that Christ died for our entire human community, does that mean you believe everyone will be saved no matter what they believe and what they have done? - and if so again how does hell and verses like Mathew 7:13-14 fit in?
I thought that I was at least clear about this. God will choose to give salvation through Christ to whomever He chooses.
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Steve,
You posted this question:
Hi angellous_evangellous,
Im curious what Christs crucifixion means to you. Dont you suppose thats the reason for christians believing they will go to heaven when they die?
Do you believe Christ paid for you sin on the cross, made atonement for you - so you can be confident you are going to heaven? What does Christs sacrifice personally mean to you?
To which I answered:
angellous said:
Steve, thanks for the question.
I've been working towards a more communal theology of the cross. From my POV, Christ died for the sins of the entire world. Western thought has become ultra-individualistic, and Westerners often reflect on the cross individualistically. That is, Christ died for my sins, and my sins put him on the cross, and I believe so I can be saved.In my preaching and research, I have been emphasizing that Christ died for the entire human community. Christ is our hope, our sacrafice. As a member of the human community, Christ is my hope.
I have no confidence in going to heaven, and IMHO, niether does anyone else. We don't know what will happen when we die. By faith, I trust that the apostles saw Jesus resurrected from the dead. All that I have is faith and hope in Christ, and faith and hope have proven to be very powerful aspects of human life.
Now we have this:
Steve said:
I believe Christs death provided the atonement we need to escape hell but we have the freewill to either accept it or reject it. When you say "I have no confidence in going to heaven, and IMHO, niether does anyone else." i disagree with the later part (that niether does anyone else), quite simply because i know its wrong - i really do have confidence of going to heaven. But as ive said many times its not because ive been good enough etc because i know i havnt - im just confident that Christs sacrifice was sufficient for me and anyone else who repents and trusts in him as their saviour.
Regards
Steve
I'm glad that you have shared your views on this topic.
IMHO, Christ did not die so that we could feel warm and fuzzy knowing that we get to party after death. Frankly, I don't understand how or why you apparently expected me to provide
your interpretation of Christianity when you asked me the question. Christianity is not a religion for the dead, but for the living. If not, we are just fire insurance salesmen - but the fire insurance only kicks in after death. Who really needs
that?
All they know is I'm not dispensational and that usually is just fine.
