Ask me about the Third Reich, National Socialism, Hitler & the Holocaust

[Saint Frankenstein]

@Nietzsche

Do you think that National Socialism might not have been that bad if they didn't have the whole racial and genocidal nonsense? Because I personally think that NS had a lot of good ideas besides that crap, along with their antiquated views on women.

 

[LuisDantas]

If I may, do you conceive of any replacement motivations that NS might have attempted to use instead of ethnical superiority and genocide, St. Frank?

Are you perhaps thinking of a purely nationalistic / militaristic movement? I have my ideas on the matter, but this is Nietzsche's thread, so I will keep mum.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If I may, do you conceive of any replacement motivations that NS might have attempted to use instead of ethnical superiority and genocide, St. Frank?

Are you perhaps thinking of a purely nationalistic / militaristic movement? I have my ideas on the matter, but this is Nietzsche's thread, so I will keep mum.

Well, if you remove the racialism, NS is probably just standard fascism with some modifications, with the biggest difference as how it views the State as a means and not an end as in Italian Fascism. It was the racist component that really makes National Socialism different from the other forms of fascism. But, to me, NS would have the same motivations for the most part without the racism and antisemitism. The goal, overall, was the creation of a superior sort of humanity. That goal could remain whether you view it through a racial lens or not.

 

[LuisDantas]

How could NS claim a goal of creating a superior sort of humanity without being racist?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How could NS claim a goal of creating a superior sort of humanity without being racist?

Without looking at it through a racial lens. Most forms of fascism have a similar goal and most aren't racial in the sense that NS was.

I used to be a fascist and a neo-Nazi, mind you. I still have some sympathies for fascism, but I think racism is silly at best.

 

[LuisDantas]

So it is a matter of emphasizing obedience, discipline, strong leadership? Something like that?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So it is a matter of emphasizing obedience, discipline, strong leadership? Something like that?

Yes. Among other things. If you do it right, you could get rid of the problems of identity divisions like racism by emphasizing that we are one Nation. But that would the only way I could see a fascist system working in a country like America. It's much easier in more monoethnic countries.

 

[LuisDantas]

Monoethic (as in having homogeneous ethical perceptions), or monoethnical?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Monoethic (as in having homogeneous ethical perceptions), or monoethnical?

I meant monoethnic. Lol.

 

[LuisDantas]

Thanks for clarifying. So, Nietzsche, what do you say?

 

[Nietzsche]

@LuisDantas
@Saint Frankenstein

Look up Brazilian "Integralism".

 

[LuisDantas]

Eh, and I was attempting to forget about it...

Hey, anything to say about Guderian? I just learned of him.

Heinz Guderian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nietzsche]

Eh, and I was attempting to forget about it...

Hey, anything to say about Guderian? I just learned of him.

Heinz Guderian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What is there to say? Military genius, pure & simple. Such a brilliant, brilliant man. What would you like to know, if anything?

 

[Nietzsche]

@Nietzsche

Do you think that National Socialism might not have been that bad if they didn't have the whole racial and genocidal nonsense? Because I personally think that NS had a lot of good ideas besides that crap, along with their antiquated views on women.

If I may, do you conceive of any replacement motivations that NS might have attempted to use instead of ethnical superiority and genocide, St. Frank?

Are you perhaps thinking of a purely nationalistic / militaristic movement? I have my ideas on the matter, but this is Nietzsche's thread, so I will keep mum.

Well, if you remove the racialism, NS is probably just standard fascism with some modifications, with the biggest difference as how it views the State as a means and not an end as in Italian Fascism. It was the racist component that really makes National Socialism different from the other forms of fascism. But, to me, NS would have the same motivations for the most part without the racism and antisemitism. The goal, overall, was the creation of a superior sort of humanity. That goal could remain whether you view it through a racial lens or not.

How could NS claim a goal of creating a superior sort of humanity without being racist?

Without looking at it through a racial lens. Most forms of fascism have a similar goal and most aren't racial in the sense that NS was.

I used to be a fascist and a neo-Nazi, mind you. I still have some sympathies for fascism, but I think racism is silly at best.

You cannot separate the racial bit from National Socialism. You could broaden its appeal, making it more like Italian Fascism in that regard, but it'll still be anti-Slav and such. You could make a 'Nazism' that elevates "its" Jews about "other" Jews. There was a very good chance for that. Some rightly saw Yiddish as a German-cousin language. It would still turn Eastern Europe into a resource extraction colony. But it may not be outright genocidal.

 

[LuisDantas]

What is there to say? Military genius, pure & simple. Such a brilliant, brilliant man. What would you like to know, if anything?

His brilliance does not seem to be in doubt, but he does seen to be unusual in the way he was treated after the war.

Now, I am by no means well informed on the matter, but I assumed that most German Generals of the time ended up dead. He did not.

In fact, my admitedly cursory research suggests that he was perhaps universally recognized as a honorable soldier, living under an undeniably difficult environment.

Do you have any kind of issues or disagreements with the way he was treated?

How unusual from an ethical perspective he was for Nazi Germany?

Do you think there are any clear lessons to be learned from him or his history?

As a parenthetical, I wonder if current military doctrine would be capable of acknowledging Guderian for his ethical merits. I truly feel that we have become more bloodthirsty in the last few decades.

 

[Nietzsche]

His brilliance does not seem to be in doubt, but he does seen to be unusual in the way he was treated after the war.

Now, I am by no means well informed on the matter, but I assumed that most German Generals of the time ended up dead. He did not.

In fact, my admitedly cursory research suggests that he was perhaps universally recognized as a honorable soldier, living under an undeniably difficult environment.

He was also a founding member of the Bundeswehr, that is the modern-day German armed forces.

Do you have any kind of issues or disagreements with the way he was treated?

None at all.

How unusual from an ethical perspective he was for Nazi Germany?

He was a military man. He wanted to win the war because that was his job, and because he was a patriot.

Do you think there are any clear lessons to be learned from him or his history?

As a parenthetical, I wonder if current military doctrine would be capable of acknowledging Guderian for his ethical merits. I truly feel that we have become more bloodthirsty in the last few decades.

Guderian, alongside von Manstein & Rommel, the father of modern Mobile Armoured Warfare. 'Shock & Awe' is latter-day Blitzkrieg.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

@LuisDantas
@Saint Frankenstein

Look up Brazilian "Integralism".

Wow, thanks. They sound right up my alley, actually. Cool.

You cannot separate the racial bit from National Socialism. You could broaden its appeal, making it more like Italian Fascism in that regard, but it'll still be anti-Slav and such. You could make a 'Nazism' that elevates "its" Jews about "other" Jews. There was a very good chance for that. Some rightly saw Yiddish as a German-cousin language. It would still turn Eastern Europe into a resource extraction colony. But it may not be outright genocidal.

Yeah, you have a point. I think it's impossible for NS to be salvaged and reformed because of those characteristics, which is one of the reasons why I dropped it.

 

[Nietzsche]

Wow, thanks. They sound right up my alley, actually. Cool.

Integralism is an extremely interesting variant of Fascism-National Socialism. It believed in a state identity rather than a racial one. One can be from anywhere, but all shall be Brazilians at the end of the day.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Integralism is an extremely interesting variant of Fascism-National Socialism. It believed in a state identity rather than a racial one. One can be from anywhere, but all shall be Brazilians at the end of the day.

I like that. Integralism makes a lot of sense and I'll have to look into it more. I've always been drawn to fascism, but the gutter racism of most fascists and fascist forums I come across is very discouraging, both as a spiritual person and as a mixed person. I separate one's "race" from one's culture. A person of any ethnicity is capable of adhering to any culture, so the question of "race" becomes basically moot. As for "race mixing", that's a moot point, too, since people naturally gravitate to "their own" in normal circumstances.

If only I could meet like-minded people, because I feel very isolated when it comes my views. I obviously don't fit into leftism but the materialist capitalism-worship of the mainstream right-wing offends me. It's annoying being the eternal outsider.

 

[Norman]

There is a lot of misconception regarding Nazi Germany, Hitler, and things related to it. While I certainly do not claim to know everything about the subjects, I do know a good deal, and seeing as how there have been quite a few times this has popped up lately, I would like to have a place where people might learn something about the topic and to also prevent other threads from derailing.

Again, I don't know everything about it but I would like to think I know enough to help. So ask away.

Norman: Hi Nietzsche, this definitely is a broad spectrum topic. I had relatives who were killed in the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp. Approximately 6,000 people were put to death each day by the Nazi regime. What do you know about why Hitler came to a conclusion in his life to want to commit genocide of the Jews, children with disabilities, Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses and many others? Was he just a sick man or did he know what he was doing? Good Question.