Astonishing- Water has Emotions

[George-ananda]

So when people muse about possible *physical* causes for the claims in the OP - as some have done in this thread - exactly why would you think that their paradigm has been shifted to include the non-physical?

I wouldn't think that and never have.

And unless you think we understand every physical mechanism that exists, I don't see how you could assume that ANY phenomenon wouldn't fit into a materialist paradigm. You can't validly say "there is no possible physical cause for this" unless you know about all physical causes. Do you think we do?

So are you saying the Materialist paradigm is not falsifiable?

I get it: you think that a person's views on "materialism" is what defines their entire paradigm. I don't share this assumption.

I don't get it. I'm talking about the Materialist paradigm. What's this 'entire paradigm' got to do with anything we're discussing.

 

[atanu]

George and Atanu, I believe you are both correct. When you get down to the quantum level, the forms become formless, matter becomes almost immaterial, and it becomes apparent that everything we see or experience is for the most part an illusion. Unlike some, I don't consider this "pure consciousness" or "bliss", but I do consider it fundamental. The underlying forces of nature...ceaseless, formless, animate.

If the ceaseless, formless, animate is not a mere mental idea but is a real presence and real experience then it got to be of the nature of awareness. No? How else it is to be known as the sole subject?

 

[Runewolf1973]

If the ceaseless, formless, animate is not a mere mental idea but is a real presence and real experience then it got to be of the nature of awareness. No? How else it is to be known as the sole subject?

In a way, I would agree with you. The fundamental forces of nature are also called the fundamental interactions. The way I understand consciousness or awareness is that it is merely another form of interaction...the ability for things to act and react to external forces. All matter interacts, changes form, and is animated by these fundamental forces. Humans and other creatures have simply formed and evolved in such a way that they can interact on a much more complex level. That is all consciousness or awareness is from a physical perspective...the ability to interact. All matter does this at some level. Not all matter is as conscious or aware as humans are, but all matter does function and interact similarly as varying levels of complexity.

 

[atanu]

In a way, I would agree with you. The fundamental forces of nature are also called the fundamental interactions. The way I understand consciousness or awareness is that it is merely another form of interaction...the ability for things to act and react to external forces. All matter interacts, changes form, and is animated by these fundamental forces. Humans and other creatures have simply formed and evolved in such a way that they can interact on a much more complex level. That is all consciousness or awareness is from a physical perspective...the ability to interact. All matter does this at some level. Not all matter is as conscious or aware as humans are, but all matter does function and interact similarly as varying levels of complexity.

On certain points, Animism, as explained by you here, may have some common points with the knowledge of Brahman... but I feel that there are fundamental differences. Brahman is simply not amenable to the Mind-Senses-Word (which are its products), since it is the Seer of these.

 

[atanu]

So H2O molecules have dopamine receptors? What?

May be. May be the paired photons of Alain Aspect's experiments have divine eyes also. How else the separated photons know of each other's states?

The point, I think, is that the existence is built upon awareness.

 

[Runewolf1973]

On certain points, Animism, as explained by you here, may have some common points with the knowledge of Brahman... but I feel that there are fundamental differences. Brahman is simply not amenable to the Mind-Senses-Word (which are its products), since it is the Seer of these.

There really should not be any fundamental difference. Such a difference would indicate a sort of duality between mind and no-mind. If all is Brahman, then that must include both that which is seen and that which is the seer. I don't perceive such a separation, it is all One manifesting or giving the illusion of the many, but even those illusions are Brahman. It is both that which is known and tested and measured by science, and that which is not known, beyond testing, beyond measurement or words. It is all things and no-things. That is my own personal understanding though...



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[Avi1001]

Resonance.

It depends upon the input driving wavelength. I would expect this to be on the microscale. It is quite remarkable that this would influence nanoscale structural behavior.

 

[atanu]

....If all is Brahman, then that must include both that which is seen and that which is the seer. ....
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That is my premise also. The Self -Brahman is neither the Seer or the Seen, as it is only the 'I' with ideas and knowledge that sees but Self is just Is.

But, in the mind level (phenomenal level ) the Seen is not ever at par with the Seer. There are several hierarchal Seer-Seen layers. The Seer and the Seen are identical (advaita) only in transcendental realm.

For example, in dream one Sees a dream body as 'me'. But that seen body is not at par with the Seer.

Drik Drisya Viveka of Shankaracharya explains about seer and seen.

When we see forms and colours through eye, the eye is the seer and forms and colours are seen.

However, eye cannot see the objects unless the objects seen by eye are recognized by mind. Then the mind becomes the seer and the eye becomes seen.

But, the mind cannot recognize the objects unless it gets its power from atma. This, we daily experience in our deep sleep where the mind is withdrawn and we are not aware of any objets.

Ultimately, Witness/ aatma/Self/I/god whatever name we call is the Seer (subject) and all others are Seen (objects) and hence inert only. However, the objects such as the physical body, the subtle body (consisting of mind etc.) and the causal body gets their sentiency due to its association with aatma.

The point is that, as long as there is subject-object division, it is the Seer that alone sees and the Seer itself cannot ever be seen. But Seer can know itself only by dissolving the Seer-seen dichotomy of its own mind when the mind that gives rise to subject-object division is involuted in Brahman and becomes Brahman itself.

The situation is similar to air being distinct from all that it pervades. It is akin to panentheism and it surely is not pantheism.

BTW. I feel that this discussion may not be fit in this thread.

 

[Avi1001]

Crystallization behavior is quite complex. There are both thermodynamic and kinetic aspects. One can envision that the microscale fluid mechanical behavior could influence the crystal habit formation. This is a multiphysics problem.

Of course it has nothing, whatsoever, to do with water having emotions.

It depends upon the input driving wavelength. I would expect this to be on the microscale. It is quite remarkable that this would influence nanoscale structural behavior.

 

[George-ananda]

Crystallization behavior is quite complex. There are both thermodynamic and kinetic aspects. One can envision that the microscale fluid mechanical behavior could influence the crystal habit formation. This is a multiphysics problem.

Of course it has nothing, whatsoever, to do with water having emotions.

How can this explain the different effects on the water crystals of pictures and words that have positive versus negative human connotations.

Maybe our minds insist on everything having a physical cause. Maybe the truth is as a poster said earlier that God/Brahman is omnipresent and Awareness is an innate characteristic of God/Brahman.

 

[Avi1001]

How can this explain the different effects on the water crystals of pictures and words that have positive versus negative human connotations.

Maybe our minds insist on everything having a physical cause. Maybe the truth is as a poster said earlier that God/Brahman is omnipresent and Awareness is an innate characteristic of God/Brahman.

Hi George,

There are always physical interactions. The words are connected to sound waves that can affect the micro structure of the liquid phase and the nanostructure of the crystal habit. Physical movement of the picture can have similar affects. And lets not forget that these experiments could be artifacts.

If G-d is present, in this case s/he is the crystal habit. If you are seeking a G-d of the gaps, you will easily find him/her.

 

[George-ananda]

Hi George,

There are always physical interactions. The words are connected to sound waves that can affect the micro structure of the liquid phase and the nanostructure of the crystal habit. Physical movement of the picture can have similar affects. And lets not forget that these experiments could be artifacts.

I think you are still trying to not acknowledge the claim that the image or words on the picture have an effect. The claim that positive pictures and words create the most beautiful crystals.

Water having 'emotions' would be a new addition to open-minded science. This is not just saying 'God did it' which would be your God of the gaps criticism. We would look to understand further. There may be mechanism underlying that with mechanisms underlying that ........

AND there might be things beyond our three-dimensional physical plane that are real and can have effects. This would just be an expansion of science.

 

[Avi1001]

Ok, George, go right ahead and keep singing in your bathtub

I think you are still trying to not acknowledge the claim that the image or words on the picture have an effect. The claim that positive pictures and words create the most beautiful crystals.

Water having 'emotions' would be a new addition to open-minded science. This is not just saying 'God did it' which would be your God of the gaps criticism. We would look to understand further. There may be mechanism underlying that with mechanisms underlying that ........

AND there might be things beyond our three-dimensional physical plane that are real and can have effects. This would just be an expansion of science.

 

[atanu]

Hi George,

There are always physical interactions. The words are connected to sound waves that can affect the micro structure of the liquid phase and the nanostructure of the crystal habit. Physical movement of the picture can have similar affects. And lets not forget that these experiments could be artifacts.

If G-d is present, in this case s/he is the crystal habit. If you are seeking a G-d of the gaps, you will easily find him/her.

Hi Avi

I cannot test the veracity or repeatabilty of the results. I assume that what Mr. Masru shows is true. Given that, how do you explain explain effect of good words vis-vis aggresive words, prayers, and music towards beautiful crystal formations.

I find Mr. Masaru's comment useful.

masaru emoto

Combination of non-resonating vibration can result in destructive energy, and nothing can be created out of it. When some vibration and the other resonate each other, it always creates beautiful design. Thus, most of the Earth is covered with beautiful nature.

That is why scientists, philosophers, and religionists pursue for unknown facts. Is it presumptuous to suggest them taking paths with “the pursuit of beauty” in mind as a means to confirm their right paths?

 

[atanu]

I can agree with Mr. Masaru, since I have been taught that Vedic mantras are such codes for creation/maintenance of beautiful environments.

I can agree also from own experience. Pranayama, prayer, and meditation help to create and sustain a beautiful mind. For me, 2 days of worldly interactions without intervening meditation etc. spoils the contents of the mind.

 

[George-ananda]

Ok, George, go right ahead and keep singing in your bathtub

Whatever do you mean by that??

I haven't conversed with you enough to know if you are one of the sarcastic types. If you are, just don't respond.

 

[Avi1001]

No worries George, I am sometime sarcastic, sometimes facetious, but if you believe that singing or showing pictures to a salt solution influences the crystal habit formed, then my views will not matter much to you anyway.

Whatever do you mean by that??

I haven't conversed with you enough to know if you are one of the sarcastic types. If you are, just don't respond.

 

[George-ananda]

No worries George, I am sometime sarcastic, sometimes facetious, but if you believe that singing or showing pictures to a salt solution influences the crystal habit formed, then my views will not matter much to you anyway.

I don't think it was a salt solution but very pure water being frozen. But whatever. I am open-minded to Dr Masaru Emoto and don't think this can be dismissed flippantly.

I've made kind of a hobby of studying so-called paranormal things and believe beyond reasonable doubt that science's understanding of the universe is dramatically incomplete.

And I think there is a growing choir singing in my bathtub and many are respectable scientists too.

 

[Avi1001]

I don't think it was a salt solution but very pure water being frozen. But whatever. I am open-minded to Dr Masaru Emoto and don't think this can be dismissed flippantly.

I've made kind of a hobby of studying so-called paranormal things and believe beyond reasonable doubt that science's understanding of the universe is dramatically incomplete.

And I think there is a growing choir singing in my bathtub and many are respectable scientists too.

If Dr. Emoto is dealing with pure water, then the crystallization process would be strongly influenced by the presence of impurities. I would like to see an analysis of this issue. Also, it is possible that there is an interaction between the freezing water and sound waves or light waves, but not emotions, as the title of this thread suggests. Maybe what is meant is Emot-ions, named after the author of the paper.

I appreciate your desire to anthropomorphize physics principles, but please keep in mind that makes your argument weak from a logical perspective.

 

[George-ananda]

If Dr. Emoto is dealing with pure water, then the crystallization process would be strongly influenced by the presence of impurities.

I watched the short video. He takes water from pure souces and takes pain to purify further. For example he could never get any of the beautiful formations with tap water.

I would like to see an analysis of this issue.

Now that is a position I can respect.

Also, it is possible that there is an interaction between the freezing water and sound waves or light waves, but not emotions, as the title of this thread suggests. Maybe what is meant is Emot-ions, named after the author of the paper.

I appreciate your desire to anthropomorphize physics principles, but please keep in mind that makes your argument weak from a logical perspective.

Now we get to the crux of this issue. Perhaps emotions ARE vibrations. But they are not detectable by current physics which assumes our familiar 'physical universe' is all there is. Some traditions use mantras to promote positive vibrations. Now they believe these vibrations are above what are known to physics and belong to other dimensional levels (like astral that are beyond our physical universe; maybe a multi-verse in some terminologies; where souls and consciousness and matter exist at higher levels). Heck, physics can't directly detect the majority of the universe; there may be 22 dimensions out there.

So I'm saying the 'logical perspective' of physics should be more humble in the face of all of existence.