Atheism: A belief?

[FlyingTeaPot]

This didn't touch down on any of the points.

And yes, atheism is hardly a world view when 2.5% of the world claims they are atheists while another 12.5% says they are non-religious.

Something can hardly be a world view when it is marginalized, indoctrinated and moves as a flock.

I find people that don't support their arguments, as stupid as people who think that anything that is believed is not a belief. Which they did not do.

Just goes to show the ill-perception of most people who act as if they know something.

Oh yes, I would totally consider your argument if I haven't heard the same thing from every atheist. And you all claim its not a world view, you must of had some sort of secret meeting.

Please, I would hate to start comparing Atheists to Christians. Its just an observation, the possessive grasp atheists have on their belief is starting to look more and more like their immaculate counter parts.

"Its not a world view", though clearly every atheist that has stopped by this thread has provided the same exact argument and almost expects it to dogmatically be accepted as true.

Try again.

Even if 100% of the population of the earth were atheists, it would still not be a world view. Atheism is just a rejection of a singular belief. I don't like menthol cigarettes. You would argue that all the people who don't like menthol cigarettes had a secret meeting to confirm to each other that they don't like menthol cigarettes. And that everything they do reflects the fact that they don't like menthol cigarettes. Or, to give another example, some people believe that the Loch Ness Monster exists. A rejection of that belief does not constitute a world view. That is just a silly argument. Why is god any different from the Loch Ness Moster? Just because a majority of the world's population hold something as a belief, doesn't make that belief true, or supported by evidence.

And yes, every atheist has stopped by because you continuously misrepresent their position and they would like to correct you. When every atheist here is trying to correct you, you still cannot claim that your version of atheism is what is correct and everyone else is wrong. Because that is not the correct representation of what atheism means as understood by a majority of atheists.

I know what you are going to say at this point. "If every atheist holds the same position, isn't it a world view?" Nope it isn't. If you continually try and say "all the people who don't like menthol cigarettes just don't like cigarettes, period!", of course they are going to make a distinction between their position and what you claim is their position. Still doesn't make it a world view or a belief.

 

[Thief]

OVER TWO THOUSAND POSTINGS!

And only a few are willing to admit.....

If it is your word spoken....it is your belief.

It may be incorrect....but as long as you insist...it's your belief.

Now go ahead....start again....make some more denial!!!!!!

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

be·lief
n.
1. The mental act, condition, or habit of placing trust or confidence in another: My belief in you is as strong as ever.
2. Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something: His explanation of what happened defies belief.
3. Something believed or accepted as true, especially a particular tenet or a body of tenets accepted by a group of persons.

"Without belief in "God(s)"" simply references not believing in a "God", you either believe a "God" exists, or you believe a "God" doesn't exist, or believe that a "God" could exist, or you believe that "God" is irrelevant either way.

In any situation, belief describes our apprehension on the subject matter, since we are all here displaying our beliefs, and they clearly Oppose each other, making them less than factual.

Nope. "I don't believe God exists" is a fifth option. It is the default position. Until I see evidence for a god, I don't believe one exists. Replace god with pink unicorns. If someone came to me and said "I have seen an invisible pink unicorn", my default response would be "I have no reason to believe you". Not "I believe you", or "I believe you are lying" or "I believe a pink unicorn could exist" or " I believe pink unicorns are irrelevant". Being stubborn about an argument is no way to win one.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

OVER TWO THOUSAND POSTINGS!

And only a few are willing to admit.....

If it is your word spoken....it is your belief.

It may be incorrect....but as long as you insist...it's your belief.

Now go ahead....start again....make some more denial!!!!!!

If I said you just posted this post. Does that make it a belief? Or an observation of fact?

 

[Thief]

Nope. "I don't believe God exists" is a fifth option. It is the default position. Until I see evidence for a god, I don't believe one exists. Replace god with pink unicorns. If someone came to me and said "I have seen an invisible pink unicorn", my default response would be "I have no reason to believe you". Not "I believe you", or "I believe you are lying" or "I believe a pink unicorn could exist" or " I believe pink unicorns are irrelevant". Being stubborn about an argument is no way to win one.

See what I mean?!

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

See what I mean?!

No, I don't see what you mean. Also, could you answer my previous question?

 

[Thief]

No, I don't see what you mean. Also, could you answer my previous question?

This entire thread is one denial after another.

Denial is a belief.

 

[shoinan]

Your going to try and pull the "I believe no God exists", is different from, "I don't believe in a God."

Actually, all I asked was for you to state the belief that was inferred by my statement. If there's a belief, it should be very easy to put into a statement "I believe...", shouldn't it? If there's a walk to be walked, we walk it. If there's a race to be raced, we race it. If there's a belief to be believed, we believe it. Unless you reject the English language I'm sure you can tell me the specific belief that is inferred by the statement "I don't believe God exists"

You failed to specify a belief. Although you're quite correct to say I'm going to pull, correctly, that "I believe no Gods exists" is different from "I don't believe God(s) exists". They are clearly not the same sentence. One says, in general layman's terms, that I don't share a theist's belief that Gods exists. The other says that I furthermore believe that the Gods he talk about DON't exist.

"I believe A is not" is NOT the same as "I don't believe A is". It just isn't.

I neither believe Gods exist or do not exist. Because I'm not arrogant enough to think I have enough information to believe one way or the other. But that's beside the point. We're still talking about the specific statement "I don't believe God exists".

Please humour me with one more try:

"I don't believe God exists" = "I believe _________________"?

The factuality of that point is that believe is used in both sentences to reference One's "God" position.

This orange is a fruit. This paint is orange.

By your reasoning, the orange paint is a fruit. Or you think painting with oranges is normal.

The strength of the standard does not exclude it as being a belief because the very definition of belief states that it is something of conviction, and utmost certainty, which almost every atheist that has come by in this has had.

What every atheist in this thread says according to you - and I've followed this thread so I know you're being dishonest - is not relevant to the singular statement "I don't believe Gods exist". Please refer to it only.

Some have even provided the argument that being believed is different from a belief, which is just unfounded and the lack of the ability to connect the dots.

I couldn't care less. I'm asking you about the statement which, as far as our discussion so far has gone, we've used to define atheism. I could say you're trying to impose other people's arguments upon mine, but I'm not even talking about me here. I'm talking about a statement - just a statement.

I provided the example that a computer, and a horse are beliefs, because they are "believed" to be, when the only factual knowledge of this belief is how the label is applied to the subject at hand.

If you think a computer is a belief then are you arguing from the point that because we have no certainty of reality therefore everything is a belief? I don't get your label statement. A label is just a term used to describe something for the purposes of communication. If I label a horse a horse, I'm just communicating a term that describes it. It makes no assertion about the horse. This is basic logic.

Whatever you call A, A still equals A. A = A. Horse = Horse. Atheism = Atheism. It doesn't matter what I label A - it's still A.

Grammaticaly wise "I believe a God doesn't exist", and "I don't believe a God exists" both hold the same analogical meaning, that One is "without God". A position and belief provided among the strong and deceitful foundation that One has "unbelief" of "God" as it so seemingly defines "unbelief" period.

One asserts that no Gods exist. The other doesn't hold the assertion that they do. Please see above for why they are different. Unbelief is not a term, by the way. It's not belief. It's an absence of belief. It's just NOT A.

You know, how A doesn't equal Not A. Nor does Not A necessarily equal B.

I'm not even sure where you're going with the rest of your comments.

If atheism is a belief please don't avoid the question and enlighten us as to which belief it is.

"I don't believe God exists" = "I believe _________________"?

I don't mind if you say "I believe Gods don't exist" if that's what you think. You're demonstrably wrong, but at least you're not avoiding the question.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

This entire thread is one denial after another.

Denial is a belief.

So if I say " You are a biologist" and you deny it, your denial is a belief?

 

[thegospelkiss]

To believe is to accept as true without proof - not without evidence - but without proof. It is no longer necessary to believe something once it is known. Knowledge is certain; belief co-exists with doubt. Given these premises, atheism is, by definition, a belief because it is not certain that there is no God; it is believed that there is no God. Just as theism is a belief because the existence of God cannot be proven, so too atheism is a belief.

If atheism is conceived of as a lack of belief in God or gods, this does not, IMO, change anything because, once again, it is an unverifiable position, perhaps not without evidence - but doubt remains. The concept of God, by its very nature, makes it a special case, radically different from a lack of belief in flying pink elephants, for example.

 

[Vampiel]

Did you even read what I wrote?

You are right-- if you have no opinion, no stance, then you lack both beliefs, and therefore have no belief on the matter. However, if you do have a position-- even if that opinion is that God does not exist-- then you have a belief.

It goes without saying that belief and non-belief are not the same thing. But, belief in a positive claim and belief in a negative claim are the same thing-- they are both beliefs.

Yes I did, I just disagree with it. I understand what you mean, but a position of non-belief of something does not equal a belief - it is the lack of it - exactly the opposite of belief.

Non-belief of the invisible pink t-rex does not equate to a belief because I don't believe in it. It is simply a lack of believing in something, not a belief.

Belief means believing in something, non-belief is a lack of it - they are not the same, they are polar opposites. Your basically saying non-belief=belief because you take a stance of not believing in it.

 

[Falvlun]

Yes I did, I just disagree with it. I understand what you mean, but a position of non-belief of something does not equal a belief - it is the lack of it - exactly the opposite of belief.

Non-belief of the invisible pink t-rex does not equate to a belief because I don't believe in it. It is simply a lack of believing in something, not a belief.

Belief means believing in something, non-belief is a lack of it - they are not the same, they are polar opposites. Your basically saying non-belief=belief because you take a stance of not believing in it.

Simple question: Are you saying that any belief that takes the form "I believe not X" is considered a non-belief?

Take, for example, "I believe that the TOE is not true". Is this a belief or a non-belief?

 

[Vampiel]

So if I say " You are a biologist" and you deny it, your denial is a belief?

This is really what it boils down to.

Anyone could say I believe in <insert x> - and you say - no I don't - that doesn't mean you have a belief - it is a lack of belief in whatever X is - not a "negative" belief - it's a *lack* of belief. Meaning *not a belief in X*.

It's a simple concept. Much like how someone that doesn't collect stamps is not a stamp collector - that doesn't make them have "the position of not collecting stamps" - it simply means *they don't*. Such as stamp collecting can mean a hobby - not having that hobby doesn't mean you have the "position of a hobby" because you don't have it. It just means, you don't "have it".

It's very simple really. Non-belief, just as someone that doesn't have a certain hobby, means they simply *do not have it* - not that they are a hobbyist of not collecting stamps~therefore they have the hobby of not collecting stamps.

No! They don't have that hobby!

It's not a belief!! It's a lack of one! They are not the same. Just because someone holds the position of non-belief in something does not mean they have a belief of not believing it. It's non-belief, and this is really redundant in attempting to explain such a simple distinction, such as having a hobby, and someone that doesn't share that hobby, does not mean they have "the hobby of not having one".

 

[Vampiel]

Simple question: Are you saying that any belief that takes the form "I believe not X" is considered a non-belief?

Take, for example, "I believe that the TOE is not true". Is this a belief or a non-belief?

Interesting question.

For simplicity, the short answer it's a non-belief.

If someone does not believe in TOE - that is a non-belief. We have to distinguish what a belief means - and what it could easily be said that it does not mean is disbelief in something.

 

[Falvlun]

Interesting question.

For simplicity, the short answer it's a non-belief.

If someone does not believe in TOE - that is a non-belief. We have to distinguish what a belief means - and what it could easily be said that it does not mean is disbelief in something.

A belief is essentially anything you hold to be true. If you hold it to true that the TOE is false, then that is a belief. If you hold it to be true that gods do not exist, then that is a belief.

On the other hand, if you simply do not know whether the TOE is true, you can be said to lack belief-- you lack the belief that it is true and you lack belief that it is false. Same with gods: you can be undecided (or ambivalent) and therefore lack belief that gods exist and lack belief that they don't exist. This would be the state of non-belief.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Interesting question.

For simplicity, the short answer it's a non-belief.

If someone does not believe in TOE - that is a non-belief. We have to distinguish what a belief means - and what it could easily be said that it does not mean is disbelief in something.

Nope, that is a belief. Any sentence that starts with "I believe...." is a belief.

 

[Copernicus]

Nope, that is a belief. Any sentence that starts with "I believe...." is a belief.

Not necessarily. The speaker could be lying. But lying violates the tacit rules of conversation that we all live by. So here is a bit of information from Speech Act Theory: All assertions are prima facie claims of belief.

The philosopher Paul Grice is widely regarded as having established four basic conversational maxims that govern speech acts. The relevant one here is called the "Maxim of Quality":

Be Truthful

• Do not say what you believe to be false
• Do not say that for which you lack adequate evidence.

The other three principles are useful, but not relevant to this discussion. All that the Maxim of Quality says is that an assertion is a belief claim for which the speaker has adequate evidence to assert the claim. People do flout this maxim all the time, but that is not the point. It is a ground-level principle of conversation.

So the point is that you do not need to start an assertion with "I believe" in order for it to count as a belief. Unless there is good reason to believe otherwise, all assertions count as belief claims. And that is why human codes of interaction almost always contain a dictum to be truthful--not to "bear false witness".

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

Yes, it was a given that I was talking about truthful claims to the best of the person's knowledge.

 

[Thief]

Nope, that is a belief. Any sentence that starts with "I believe...." is a belief.

This is it...the quote....

I stated this all through this thread.

This same person has made rebuttal contrary to my postings...and then offers this...as if it belonged to them.

I have made the discussion....

If you offer your words....your opinion...your argument...your discussion....etc...

your words are what you believe.

Though you happen to be contrary....objecting...'nay' saying...etc....
your efforts still comes from what goes on ...in your head....what you think....what you feel.

That you lack the will...or reason ...to be positive....doesn't mean you have it correct.

And your lack of belief...is your belief.

That you say nay...is a function of your thought and feeling...just like anyone who says they do believe.

That act of denial...is a belief.
Nay saying is action brought by belief.
Drawing a conclusion and not having found cause...you make denial.
Your conclusion...your denial is what you think...what you believe.

All this thread revolves around definition.
That's unfortunate.

Somewhere...I think it was grade school...
A discussion of logic came up....in which a flow of thought resulted in bad conclusion.
The discussion was made to demonstrate the point...logic can fail.
Definition isn't always absolute.
And there seems a exception to every rule.

It is possible to think yourself into a corner....as seen in the quote above.
The same who would say nay...ends up using the same technique to their own discussion.

And then another nay sayer steps up.....

Around and around we go.....

 

[shoinan]

Okay, a simple question to all: Do you agree with the following statement?

ANY BELIEF CAN BE TRANSLATED INTO THE STATEMENT "I BELIEVE X" WHERE X DESCRIBES THE OBJECT OF BELIEF.

If not, please explain why not.