Atheism: A belief?

[Thief]

Okay, a simple question to all: Do you agree with the following statement?

ANY BELIEF CAN BE TRANSLATED INTO THE STATEMENT "I BELIEVE X" WHERE X DESCRIBES THE OBJECT OF BELIEF.

If not, please explain why not.

And have you been reading this thread.....?

And pseudo mathematical logic?....really?

 

[shoinan]

And have you been reading this thread.....?

And pseudo mathematical logic?....really?

I've been following it since near the start.

It's not mathematical logic. It's English. Very simple.

Can any belief be expressed as "I believe..."?

Maybe you could try answering the question rather than avoiding it.

 

[Thief]

I've been following it since near the start.

It's not mathematical logic. It's English. Very simple.

Can any belief be expressed as "I believe..."?

Maybe you could try answering the question rather than avoiding it.

Ooooooooooo.....so authoritative!

The question has been answered...repeatedly.

 

[shoinan]

Ooooooooooo.....so authoritative!

The question has been answered...repeatedly.

Is it so hard to type 'Yes' or 'No'?

 

[Thief]

Is it so hard to type 'Yes' or 'No'?

Go on.......yes or no.

 

[shoinan]

Go on.......yes or no.

For the record, I think the answer is yes. I think any belief can be described using the phrase "I believe". I could be wrong - hence why I'm trying to discuss it here. I'd like to know people's answers so I can better understand their arguments. If you'd like to offer yours, I'd be very interested to read it.

 

[FlyingTeaPot]

This is it...the quote....

I stated this all through this thread.

This same person has made rebuttal contrary to my postings...and then offers this...as if it belonged to them.

I have made the discussion....

If you offer your words....your opinion...your argument...your discussion....etc...

your words are what you believe.

Though you happen to be contrary....objecting...'nay' saying...etc....
your efforts still comes from what goes on ...in your head....what you think....what you feel.

That you lack the will...or reason ...to be positive....doesn't mean you have it correct.

And your lack of belief...is your belief.

That you say nay...is a function of your thought and feeling...just like anyone who says they do believe.

That act of denial...is a belief.
Nay saying is action brought by belief.
Drawing a conclusion and not having found cause...you make denial.
Your conclusion...your denial is what you think...what you believe.

All this thread revolves around definition.
That's unfortunate.

Somewhere...I think it was grade school...
A discussion of logic came up....in which a flow of thought resulted in bad conclusion.
The discussion was made to demonstrate the point...logic can fail.
Definition isn't always absolute.
And there seems a exception to every rule.

It is possible to think yourself into a corner....as seen in the quote above.
The same who would say nay...ends up using the same technique to their own discussion.

And then another nay sayer steps up.....

Around and around we go.....

I have made it quite clear that believing and not believing are two different things, You misrepresent my position continually and then point and say, "Aha! gotcha!" That is just silly. Also, you have not answered my previous post.

 

[Falvlun]

This is it...the quote....

I stated this all through this thread.

This same person has made rebuttal contrary to my postings...and then offers this...as if it belonged to them.

I have made the discussion....

If you offer your words....your opinion...your argument...your discussion....etc...

your words are what you believe.

Though you happen to be contrary....objecting...'nay' saying...etc....
your efforts still comes from what goes on ...in your head....what you think....what you feel.

That you lack the will...or reason ...to be positive....doesn't mean you have it correct.

And your lack of belief...is your belief.

That you say nay...is a function of your thought and feeling...just like anyone who says they do believe.

That act of denial...is a belief.
Nay saying is action brought by belief.
Drawing a conclusion and not having found cause...you make denial.
Your conclusion...your denial is what you think...what you believe.

All this thread revolves around definition.
That's unfortunate.

Somewhere...I think it was grade school...
A discussion of logic came up....in which a flow of thought resulted in bad conclusion.
The discussion was made to demonstrate the point...logic can fail.
Definition isn't always absolute.
And there seems a exception to every rule.

It is possible to think yourself into a corner....as seen in the quote above.
The same who would say nay...ends up using the same technique to their own discussion.

And then another nay sayer steps up.....

Around and around we go.....

A question to you Thief: Do you believe that it is impossible to hold the "I don't know" option, or the "I don't care" option, and therefore truly not have a belief on the matter?

Because, that is how I interpret "lack of belief".

 

[Falvlun]

Okay, a simple question to all: Do you agree with the following statement?

ANY BELIEF CAN BE TRANSLATED INTO THE STATEMENT "I BELIEVE X" WHERE X DESCRIBES THE OBJECT OF BELIEF.

If not, please explain why not.

I don't see why not.

 

[Copernicus]

Beliefs are propositions that can be either true or false, but they are not simple things that you either have or do not have. For one thing, they are scalar in nature. That is, there are degrees of certainty. If you are unable to decide whether a proposition is true or false, that is a very different mental state than having no proposition to decide about at all. Indecisiveness is not so much lack of belief as it is inability to suppress one of the two truth values that we assign to a proposition. Sometimes we call that "being of two minds".

I think of the mind more as having a mass of competing beliefs rather than just a set of propositions with fixed truth values. Every proposition--a statement that could be true or false about reality--is up for grabs. The belief that gods exist could be very weakly held on either side. A person can lean positive or negative. If that person leans negative, no matter how weakly, then I consider that person an "atheist". If a person can't decide from one moment to the next, then I wouldn't call that person an "atheist". If the person has no concept of a god, I would consider the question of a label moot.

 

[Thief]

A question to you Thief: Do you believe that it is impossible to hold the "I don't know" option, or the "I don't care" option, and therefore truly not have a belief on the matter?

Because, that is how I interpret "lack of belief".

Now I can offer your interpretation as incorrect.

I don't know......is ignorance.
I don't care.....is apathy.

I don't believe....displays thought and conviction.
A belief.

As soon as you have made up your mind....making declaration.....
belief is yours.
It might be poorly supported....
It might be nay saying....

It is always your belief.

 

[Copernicus]

I don't believe....displays thought and conviction.
A belief.

So, do you believe that the following exchange is an improper use of English?

A) Do you believe that the Giants will win the pennant?
B) No. I simply don't know.

"No" can represent either a denial of belief or a denial of the proposition that is the object of belief. More often than not, it represents a denial of the object, but it is legitimate to use it as a denial of holding the belief itself.

 

[Thief]

So, do you believe that the following exchange is an improper use of English?

A) Do you believe that the Giants will win the pennant?
B) No. I simply don't know.

"No" can represent either a denial of belief or a denial of the proposition that is the object of belief. More often than not, it represents a denial of the object, but it is legitimate to use it as a denial of holding the belief itself.

Isn't this what they call a straw man argument?

But to say this thread is one play of words after another would be correct.

Perhaps it would be easier to point out.....
what you declare has consequence.

Non-believers are nay saying altogether.
No faith...no afterlife....no consequence.

Even to the extent of denying nay saying as a belief.

To say there is no God.....is your belief.....

 

[Copernicus]

Theist, please introduce this new debate topic in a new thread. Atheists are divided on how to define atheism. So what?

 

[Thief]

Theist, please introduce this new debate topic in a new thread. I see no need. Atheists are divided on how to define atheism. And I am not surprised the lack of consensus. So what?

So what indeed?!
Are you conceding the title of this thread?

 

[Falvlun]

Now I can offer your interpretation as incorrect.

I don't know......is ignorance.
I don't care.....is apathy.

I don't believe....displays thought and conviction.
A belief.

That is precisely my point-- if you are not displaying thought and conviction about something, then you can be said to "lack belief"-- you have no belief on the matter.

As soon as you have made up your mind....making declaration.....
belief is yours.
It might be poorly supported....
It might be nay saying....

It is always your belief.

No disagreement there. But by saying "as soon as you have made up your mind" you are implying that there was a "before" when the mind had not been made up. That "before" can rightly be called "lack of belief". Do you disagree?

 

[Thief]

That is precisely my point-- if you are not displaying thought and conviction about something, then you can be said to "lack belief"-- you have no belief on the matter.


No disagreement there. But by saying "as soon as you have made up your mind" you are implying that there was a "before" when the mind had not been made up. That "before" can rightly be called "lack of belief". Do you disagree?

I can...as long as the atheist is willing to confess ignorance...or apathy.

The moment a declaration of reason is made......belief.

 

[Falvlun]

I can...as long as the atheist is willing to confess ignorance...or apathy.

The moment a declaration of reason is made......belief.

We agree then.

 

[Orias]

I couldn't care less. I'm asking you about the statement which, as far as our discussion so far has gone, we've used to define atheism. I could say you're trying to impose other people's arguments upon mine, but I'm not even talking about me here. I'm talking about a statement - just a statement.

I was just making clear what others have argued, hoping that you wouldn't bring up some of the redundant and illogical premises others have thought were so concrete.

If you think a computer is a belief then are you arguing from the point that because we have no certainty of reality therefore everything is a belief? I don't get your label statement. A label is just a term used to describe something for the purposes of communication. If I label a horse a horse, I'm just communicating a term that describes it. It makes no assertion about the horse. This is basic logic.

I completely agree with your last few sentences.

Basically your first statement is spot on, though I have a feeling you may take it in the wrong the direct, we will see

As for the label statement, the only factual and practical application of labels is how we believe it applies to a subject or object.

Just because it strongly applies to One subject or object, does not mean that it cannot weakly apply to another subject object.

We hold trust in our labels, a way of communication, we believe that because we use words to describe our Minds, that others will automatically understand.

This is a mistake on most peoples behalf, since all people do perceive differently, and all people react to what others believe, differently.

Whatever you call A, A still equals A. A = A. Horse = Horse. Atheism = Atheism. It doesn't matter what I label A - it's still A.

Thats a point I have been trying to make for some time now

Because people like to complicate and add more meaning onto what they believe atheism is, automatically justifies atheism as not being a belief, when clearly there are atheists here debating against the other atheists saying that, Atheism is in fact a belief (a position of both weak (negative) and strong (positive) beliefs).

All knowledge, is a belief(s), not all beliefs are "knowledge".

One asserts that no Gods exist. The other doesn't hold the assertion that they do. Please see above for why they are different. Unbelief is not a term, by the way. It's not belief. It's an absence of belief. It's just NOT A.

Actually, unbelief is a term.

And its not just "absence of belief", its "absence of belief in God", which is a belief taken unto those who make no assertion either way.

You know, how A doesn't equal Not A. Nor does Not A necessarily equal B.

I'm not even sure where you're going with the rest of your comments.

Actually, A does equal A, since, 0(A)X 1(B)=0(A), as does 0(A)+1(B)=1(B).

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."-Albert Einstein​

If atheism is a belief please don't avoid the question and enlighten us as to which belief it is.

I think what your asking for isn't as practical as you would like it to be, since I could ask you the question, "enlighten us to which belief atheism isn't".

To specify, a person of atheism, is "atheistic" in belief, or position towards "God(s)".

"I don't believe God exists" = "I believe _________________"?

I don't mind if you say "I believe Gods don't exist" if that's what you think. You're demonstrably wrong, but at least you're not avoiding the question.

Please, with courtesy, support and demonstrate how I am wrong, without making the assumption that everyone uses these two statements in the same exact way

 

[Orias]

I couldn't care less. I'm asking you about the statement which, as far as our discussion so far has gone, we've used to define atheism. I could say you're trying to impose other people's arguments upon mine, but I'm not even talking about me here. I'm talking about a statement - just a statement.

I was just making clear what others have argued, hoping that you wouldn't bring up some of the redundant and illogical premises others have thought were so concrete.

If you think a computer is a belief then are you arguing from the point that because we have no certainty of reality therefore everything is a belief? I don't get your label statement. A label is just a term used to describe something for the purposes of communication. If I label a horse a horse, I'm just communicating a term that describes it. It makes no assertion about the horse. This is basic logic.

I completely agree with your last few sentences.

Basically your first statement is spot on, though I have a feeling you may take it in the wrong the direction, we will see

As for the label statement, the only factual and practical application of labels is how we believe it applies to a subject or object.

Just because it strongly applies to One subject or object, does not mean that it cannot weakly apply to another subject object.

We hold trust in our labels, a way of communication, we believe that because we use words to describe our Minds, that others will automatically understand.

This is a mistake on most peoples behalf, since all people do perceive differently, and all people react to what others believe, differently.

Whatever you call A, A still equals A. A = A. Horse = Horse. Atheism = Atheism. It doesn't matter what I label A - it's still A.

Thats a point I have been trying to make for some time now

Because people like to complicate and add more meaning onto what they believe atheism is, automatically justifies atheism as not being a belief, when clearly there are atheists here debating against the other atheists saying that, Atheism is in fact a belief (a position of both weak (negative) and strong (positive) beliefs).

All knowledge, is a belief(s), not all beliefs are "knowledge".

One asserts that no Gods exist. The other doesn't hold the assertion that they do. Please see above for why they are different. Unbelief is not a term, by the way. It's not belief. It's an absence of belief. It's just NOT A.

Actually, unbelief is a term.

And its not just "absence of belief", its "absence of belief in God", which is a belief taken unto those who make no assertion either way.

You know, how A doesn't equal Not A. Nor does Not A necessarily equal B.

I'm not even sure where you're going with the rest of your comments.

Actually, A does equal A, since, 0(A)X 1(B)=0(A), as does 0(A)+1(B)=1(B).

"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality."-Albert Einstein​

If atheism is a belief please don't avoid the question and enlighten us as to which belief it is.

I think what your asking for isn't as practical as you would like it to be, since I could ask you the question, "enlighten us to which belief atheism isn't".

To specify, a person of atheism, is "atheistic" in belief, or position towards "God(s)".

"I don't believe God exists" = "I believe _________________"?

I don't mind if you say "I believe Gods don't exist" if that's what you think. You're demonstrably wrong, but at least you're not avoiding the question.

Please, with courtesy, support and demonstrate how I am wrong, without making the assumption that everyone uses these two statements in the same exact way