Oh. That is why I said we need to throw away those dictionaries. Nevertheless, you now at least acknowledge that there are some strong atheists.
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Atheism: A belief?
- Thread starter Orias
- Start date
Oh. That is why I said we need to throw away those dictionaries. Nevertheless, you now at least acknowledge that there are some strong atheists.
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Again: this doesn't matter. We're talking about atheism, not atheists.
I am an atheist. I have plenty of beliefs about the existence of God, but none of them are what makes me an atheist. Rejection of God is compatible with atheism... it's even common among atheists. But it's not the defining criterion that distinguishes atheism from theism.
Not the ones you cherry-pick, no. But it's right there in several of them. Do you want me to repeat them?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I'm not asking what you know, or believe you know, I'm asking what you believe about the color of the shirt I'm wearing. It's a simple question.
Do you believe I'm wearing a blue shirt?
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Right, and you acknowledge that not all atheists are strong atheists.
Alceste
Vagabond
Point of fact: YOU brought babies into it, and I think Atanu brought up stones.
Nice try though. Lol.
I've offered arguments on why babies and stones are not technically atheists. Rather than to rebut my arguments, you merely repeat your claim. That is argumentum ad nauseam.
If you accept that definition, then you must agree that stones are not technically atheists. If you can hold on to that, then you are not in as bad a predicament as your earlier claim about stones.
I don't think that this is about who is "usually better". It is about the question of whether atheism is a type of belief. We have taken opposing positions on that subject. That doesn't mean that I think any less of you. If we are counting noses (and I think that we've let it go unchallenged that all atheists have noses), then there are more atheist noses on your side of the debate than mine. I suspect, though, that I could bring most lexicologist and lexicographer noses over to my side.
Copernicus, why are you so desperate to reject the validity weak atheism? It is by far the majority position among atheists, particularly among strict empiricists: "whether or not any gods exist, I don't happen to believe in them."
Is it lonely being one of the minority who make a positive claim that no "gods" exist, anywhere in the universe? Are you trying to artificially expand your numbers by including those who accept that much of the universe is unknown and decline to offer an opinion on what it does or does not contain?
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Alceste
Vagabond
That's just silliness. If all atheists shared the belief "there is no god" these threads would be a page or two at most. Copernicus, who believes there is no god, DISAGREES with all the rest of the atheists on this thread (and with wikipedia and almost all English dictionaries) about whether or not they are "really" atheists. That's what's keeping this thread limping along, not a shared world view.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
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Ah, so you avoid the question because you see how it will invalidate your position. Got it.
I had never any doubts.
But does your definition of atheism includes that of strong atheist or not?
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No. I have stated my belief, which is agnostic. I have no gnosis of this issue of what colour your shirt is.
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Alceste
Vagabond
Whereas Alceste would reply "what does the word 'god' mean to you?"
Because I lack belief in deities, I have nothing invested in the language construct "god" - no personal definition. Therefore I have no business defining "god" for others who care what it means. Therefore, without a bit of schooling on what they use the language construct "god" for, the question is unanswerable.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Right, I'm not asking what you know about my shirt, but what you believe. Don't sweat it - I understand you want to avoid a situation you don't know how to get out of. It actually saves me time and energy not having to chase you down an endless trail of mental gymnastics and semantic ploys in a misguided attempt to resist my argument. Others could learn from you.
Even if every atheist shared that belief, there would still be a question of whether it's required to be an atheist.
I gave my analogy before of how you don't have to be German to be European. This would still be true even if (for some unknown reason) every country in Europe but Germany became depopulated. Even if every European was German, you'd still need to illustrate how it would be impossible to live anywhere else in Europe before you could argue that to be European, you must be German.
It's not a question of what characteristics are common among atheists; it's a question of which of those characteristics are the one(s) that make the person an atheist.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Yes, the definition of atheism includes both those labeled as "strong" and "weak" atheists.
Search your mind. Consider your beliefs; do you find the belief "Kilgore Trout's shirt is blue" among them?
It's a simple yes or no question.
I'm starting to get an itch to draw some Venn diagrams.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
Apparently, the best I've seen so far is that the common characteristics that make someone an atheist is that 1) they are atheists, and 2) they aren't theists. Incredibly useful.
No use creating imaginary situations.
I either do not know what a blue shirt is (Ignostic) or I know reasonably well what a blue shirt is but i believe that I have no way of knowing whether Kilgore is wearing one or not (agnostic).
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Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
You seem to be confusing knowing with believing. Although, to be fair, this does seem to be a common problem.