Atheism: A belief?

[Kilgore Trout]

Oh I for sure know that it doesn't apply to all atheists. You should read some of the earlier posts, I don't feel like repeating myself everytime I reply to you.

Then don't. Simply tell me what belief atheism is.

Theists believe that something called god exists.

Flat-earthists believe that the earth is flat.

What do atheists believe, if it is a belief?

 

[Orias]

Okay, assuming that this has anything to do with what actually makes people atheists in the real world, what would the belief actually be?

That they are.

 

[Willamena]

Okay, assuming that this has anything to do with what actually makes people atheists in the real world, what would the belief actually be?

People are the only thing that make people anything "in the real world."

Holding that theists exist and holding that ones beliefs are apart from theism defines atheism.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That they are.

So atheists are atheists because they believe they are atheists. Is that really all you're saying?

Unfortunately, this adds no useful information. This would apply to any label, but it doesn't meaningfully define a label.

What makes a theist a theist? Because they believe they are theists? No, because they believe something called god exists.

What makes a flat-earthist a flat-earthist? Because they believe they are a flat-earthist? No, because they believe earth is flat.

It doesn't actually add any meaning or definition. And if you start down that path, then it becomes infinitely recursive. I believe that I believe I'm an atheist; I believe that I believe that I believe I'm an atheist. It adds no useful information - it doesn't provide a meaningful definition.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

People are the only thing that make people anything "in the real world."

Holding that theists exist and holding that ones beliefs are apart from theism defines atheism.

So what belief do I hold that makes me an atheist?

 

[Willamena]

So what belief do I hold that makes me an atheist?

Judging from your words, it's that there are these people called "theists" for whom some mysterious force in a far away place called "the real world" has the power to assert itself, apparently from nothingness, to "make them" defined.

Ooooh, spooky.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Judging from your words, it's that there are these people called "theists" for whom some mysterious force in a far away place called "the real world" has the power to assert itself, apparently from nothingness, to "make them" defined.

Ooooh, spooky.

Sorry, I cannot parse your sentence for meaning. Can you restate what belief I hold that makes me an atheist?

 

[atanu]

But I already told you that this isn't all the word means.

So we have a need to throw away these definitions/dictionaries in favour of new ones containing your definitions.

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[atanu]

So what belief do I hold that makes me an atheist?

No one can guess your belief and your belief need not be in sync with common belief. If you believe that your idea of atheism is the only correct one then that is a belief.

Dictionary definitions include the following:

Merriam-Webster OnLine
atheist: one who believes that there is no deity
atheism:
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
disbelief: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue

Cambridge Dictionary of American English
atheist: someone who believes that God does not exist
atheism: the belief that God does not exist

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[Kilgore Trout]

No one can guess your belief and your belief need not be in sync with common belief. If you believe that your idea of atheism is the only correct one then that is a belief.

Dictionary definitions include the following:

Merriam-Webster OnLine
atheist: one who believes that there is no deity
atheism:
2 a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity
disbelief: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue

Cambridge Dictionary of American English
atheist: someone who believes that God does not exist
atheism: the belief that God does not exist

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Indeed, I can cherry-pick different dictionary definitions which correspond to how I define atheism as well. What's your point?

 

[cottage]

That's besides the point, you are certain that you are a skeptic.

Which insists belief, of self evidence of course.

So is A=A dogmatically on a par with belief in a supernatural being? Is that what you're saying, because I'm at a loss to see what your argument is.

This is completely false. I hold no "characterized" attributes to what is "God" is, the position of such a "God" would be defined by perspective of him, which theism clearly holds.

Well it isn't false, I used common examples that are attributed to a particular god ('God'), (which as theist you may or may not believe in). The essence of what I was saying is that whichever god it is you believe in you do so primarily from faith (if it were from reason alone to a supposed First Cause it wouldn't be a god and therefore you wouldn't be a theist).

The point is, that the existence of such a being is also defined by theism and atheism.

And where was the concept of God initiated, among unbelievers?

I can assure, a large majority of atheists hold strong belief in their "atheism".

I'm sure they do, but it isn't a committed belief as faith.

 

[atanu]

Indeed, I can cherry-pick different dictionary definitions which correspond to how I define atheism as well. What's your point?

True. So, everyone has a preferred belief as per one's preferences, values, experiences etc. as to what consitutes atheism.

However, if you had cherry picked your favourite definition, that will not invalidate above standard understanding of atheism.

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[Kilgore Trout]

That does not invalidate above standard understanding.

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Indeed, cherry-picking dictionary definitions doesn't invalidate common understanding of words. As most atheists do not define themselves as "strong" atheists, cherry-picked dictionary definitions do not invalidate their common understanding.

Once again, what's your point?

 

[Orias]

So is A=A dogmatically on a par with belief in a supernatural being? Is that what you're saying, because I'm at a loss to see what your argument is.

I'm saying that you are certain you are a skeptic, you believe that you are, without recognizing it.

Well it isn't false, I used common examples that are attributed to a particular god ('God'), (which as theist you may or may not believe in). The essence of what I was saying is that whichever god it is you believe in you do so primarily from faith (if it were from reason alone to a supposed First Cause it wouldn't be a god and therefore you wouldn't be a theist).

If you were generalizing then I agree with you, but I thought that you were directing that my "God" is characterized.

And where was the concept of God initiated, among unbelievers?

That God is recognized as fallible.

I'm sure they do, but it isn't a committed belief as faith.

Sure it is, when they find the "truth" they will be as faithful as one is commited to considering themselves such a label.

 

[Orias]

So atheists are atheists because they believe they are atheists. Is that really all you're saying?

Unfortunately, this adds no useful information. This would apply to any label, but it doesn't meaningfully define a label.

What makes a theist a theist? Because they believe they are theists? No, because they believe something called god exists.

What makes a flat-earthist a flat-earthist? Because they believe they are a flat-earthist? No, because they believe earth is flat.

It doesn't actually add any meaning or definition. And if you start down that path, then it becomes infinitely recursive. I believe that I believe I'm an atheist; I believe that I believe that I believe I'm an atheist. It adds no useful information - it doesn't provide a meaningful definition.

Actually no, a person is an atheist when they believe they are an atheist as much as a person is a theist as much they believe they are a theist. "God" is irrelevant to the discussion of "characterization".

Autotheists are still "atheists", and they are still "theists". Just as "a-theists" are still "theists", it's just God without existence, no meaning to God, irrelevance.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ah. It's a question of no one listening to what he's actually saying --I can sympathize.

Let's try a test: look up "lack of belief" at M-W.com.

Ah - so you think he was giving us a red herring?

So we have a need to throw away these definitions/dictionaries in favour of new ones containing your definitions.

No. All you need to do is acknowledge that the definition I gave is a valid definition.

 

[atanu]

Repeat

1. For all practical purposes, "I do not believe in the existence of God" does mean "I believe that God does not exist". Raising shifts the negative from the subordinate clause where it logically belongs to the main clause, when the main clause’s verb is suppose, think, believe, seem, etc..

For example:

"I don't believe the egg was eaten" does mean "I believe the egg was not eaten". It does not mean that I don't have any beliefs about the egg being eaten/not eaten. Both these sentences are valid english usage and are understood as meaning same. Here the subject is eating of egg.

2. Absence of hair can never mean presence of hair. 'Absence of X negates presence of X' logic applies to objects and not to cognition itself.

"X" is an object. It can either 'exist' or 'not exist'. Whereas, 'belief', is a symptom of cognition that is everpresent in any assertion. Assertions such as 'I have lack of belief of God' or 'I don't believe in existence of God' do not happen without cognition.

These assertions do not mean that "I do not have any belief about existence of God".

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[Kilgore Trout]

Actually no, a person is an atheist when they believe they are an atheist as much as a person is a theist as much they believe they are a theist. "God" is irrelevant to the discussion of "characterization".

Right, and in both cases, it adds no useful information.

If I ask someone what belief makes a theist a theist, what would there answer likely be?

Would it be, "because they believe they are a theist..."? Highly doubtful. Why? Because people would understand the nature of what you're asking: what belief defines what theism is?

So, in this case, of saying that atheism is a belief, what is the belief that defines what atheism is? Not what makes one an atheist, but that makes atheism a belief.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Repeat

1. For all practical purposes, "I do not believe in the existence of God" does mean "I believe that God does not exist". Raising shifts the negative from the subordinate clause where it logically belongs to the main clause, when the main clause’s verb is suppose, think, believe, seem, etc..

Do you believe I'm wearing a blue shirt?

 

[atanu]

No. All you need to do is acknowledge that the definition I gave is a valid definition.

This is actually a joke since your definition does not encompass valid definitions.

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