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Atheism: A belief?

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I understand that '-ism' represents a belief system of its adherants.

Then you have a misunderstanding. Theism and atheism are not belief systems. There are belief systems that can be described as theistic or atheistic, but the two "isms" in and of themselves are not belief systems.

To your earlier question "Do you believe God exists?", some atheists will reply "No, we do not believe that God exists". Some atheists, however, will say "We lack belief in God".
  • Whether we can say with certainty that all atheists lack belief in God'?
  • How do we define the term 'atheist' to include both varities?
  • Whether 'lack of belief in God' means that there is no belief whatsoever regarding the concept of God?
...

You've been in this debate this long, and you're still asking that second question?

First, your atheist replies are the same thing. Saying "No, I don't believe God exists" is the same as "No, I lack the belief that God exists". So, those are not two different varieties of atheists; they are the same. he two varieties of atheists are those who simply lack belief in God and those who go further and believe God does not exist. The definition we can use to include both varieties is:

atheist - One who lacks belief in God, and may also believe that God doesn't exist

Basically there are two groups:

Group 1 - People who lack the belief in God
Group 2 - People who hold the belief that God does not exist

All of those in group 2 necessarily also belong to group 1, but not all of group 1 necessarily belongs to group 2. But both groups are atheists.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
:(
You are undermining my problem. Let me remind you.



To make myself (and many others) to agree to your definition that atheism means 'lack of belief in god' only and nothing else, I need to remove the goalposts altogether. I need a lot of fund.:(

...

That isn't true. Our definition of atheism includes people who hold the belief that God does not exist. The difference is ours also includes people who just don't have the belief that God doesn't exist.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Then you have a misunderstanding. Theism and atheism are not belief systems. There are belief systems that can be described as theistic or atheistic, but the two "isms" in and of themselves are not belief systems.



You've been in this debate this long, and you're still asking that second question?

First, your atheist replies are the same thing. Saying "No, I don't believe God exists" is the same as "No, I lack the belief that God exists". So, those are not two different varieties of atheists; they are the same. he two varieties of atheists are those who simply lack belief in God and those who go further and believe God does not exist. The definition we can use to include both varieties is:

atheist - One who lacks belief in God, and may also believe that God doesn't exist

Basically there are two groups:

Group 1 - People who lack the belief in God
Group 2 - People who hold the belief that God does not exist

All of those in group 2 necessarily also belong to group 1, but not all of group 1 necessarily belongs to group 2. But both groups are atheists.

Your missing the entirety of the point that, you believe that. It is an axiom, and a very thorough one at that, which insinuates that you add a burden of unnecessary claims as to what atheism actually is.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I haven't been reading this thread. Has anyone yet actually stated a single belief specific to atheists that all atheists hold (in other words, what belief(s) make any atheist an atheist).
Well, yes, yes, I did. But it was summarily dismissed. :D


One that's unique to atheists would be another matter.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
One that's unique to atheists would be another matter.

It might be a different matter to you, but it's what I'm asking about. All atheists might believe the earth revolves around the sun, but that belief doesn't actually make them atheists. It seems ridiculous to have to point this out, but apparently some people don't understand the distinction on their own.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Except that you are certain you are a skeptic.

The certainty is implied in the terms. If I’m doubting then I’m sceptical (tautology); like an unexpected surprise.


What am I doing right now?

Reading these words I guess?


You believe((x)atheism is a lack of belief, or skepticism, etc. etc.), and from one's positions believes,((y)non-existence) is true of "God".

The above certainly isn’t faith based, whereas in your case you have attributed to God particular qualities that, for example, he is a perfectly good and moral being who has an interest in mankind, which is what I meant by ‘I believe x to be true, and I believe x is true of God.’ There is hope and an emotional commitment in that.




Of course, and it is the same if it's atheism. Not in the same exact manner of course, but by developed axioms.

'Not in the same manner' is an understatement in my view, because the theist wants to go beyond the world of experience.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
It might be a different matter to you, but it's what I'm asking about. All atheists might believe the earth revolves around the sun, but that belief doesn't actually make them atheists. It seems ridiculous to have to point this out, but apparently some people don't understand the distinction on their own.


Exactly, your asking for an impractical example specific to what you consider "atheism", everyone argues based off of axioms as to what their belief in atheism is, though it is defined with, lack of belief, disbelief or denial of the mind. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the number of references towards belief, in it's positive and negative denotative possessions.

Yet you continually connive at the points with your arguments of special pleading, which you faithfully and continually insist, after people have given numerous examples.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
It might be a different matter to you, but it's what I'm asking about. All atheists might believe the earth revolves around the sun, but that belief doesn't actually make them atheists. It seems ridiculous to have to point this out, but apparently some people don't understand the distinction on their own.
Belief, by definition, is pretty much unique to every individual. No two will believe the same thing about anything, especially when it comes to theism. But the definition of theism only requires that one hold belief in something called "god," not what that particular belief might be.

If the atheist wants to take a stand in contrast to theism, she takes a stance that there is something called "god" that defines the theist in their theism. If she didn't believe that, she'd have no reason to go around calling herself atheist.

That makes for a species.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Exactly, your asking for an impractical example specific to what you consider "atheism", everyone argues based off of axioms as to what their belief in atheism is, though it is defined with, lack of belief, disbelief or denial of the mind. It doesn't take a genius to figure out the number of references towards belief, in it's positive and negative denotative possessions.

Yet you continually connive at the points with your arguments of special pleading, which you faithfully and continually insist, after people have given numerous examples.

No, I'm simply asking what belief defines atheism, if atheism is a belief. I'm being specific with the criteria for defining that belief, because many people seem to have a difficult time maintaining relevance if you don't spell it out for them.

I have yet to hear a single belief which fits the bill for defining atheism, as a whole, as a belief. I don't understand why this should be difficult, unless, of course, atheism isn't, in fact, a belief.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
What I'm saying is that (a) is a perfectly acceptable and normal interpretation of the original sentence. In our case "Philip doesn't believe: God exists" is the interpretation of "Philip doesn't believe that God exists".
You keep begging the question, which is whether that is the correct interpretation "in our case". I believe that it is not.

Again, I don't understand the point of bringing this up. Yes, if you deny that God exists, everyone in the world should be able to agree that you're an atheist. There is no difference of opinion there...
Agreed. If someone denies that gods exist, then that person clearly lacks a belief that gods exist. What isn't clear is whether someone who merely lacks a belief that gods exist is ipso facto an atheist. That is the question under discussion. Your argument that lack of belief is sufficient seems to consist solely of repeating the claim despite reasonable evidence to the contrary, which you handle with a dogmatic hand-waving dismissal as irrelevant to the argument. Here it is again:

The difference of opinion is whether simply the lack of belief in God constitutes atheism. You think it's too broad a definition, but you have yet to explain why exactly. All you've done recently is say "It's just silly to apply that label to a stone or baby, so clearly you're wrong". Why is that too broad a definition for you?
Because (by your own admission!) people do not use the label to describe those who merely lack belief--e.g. infants, intelligent animals, or coma victims. Mere lack of belief is not sufficient to qualify one as an "atheist", and we know that because of how people use the word. They use it exclusively to describe people who know what gods are and reject the belief that gods exist. The only folks who seem to accept your definition are atheists and those willing to go along with however atheists wish to define the label, even though word usage is not a matter of prescriptive fiat. Word meanings are determined by how people use words, not by how they claim to use words. As someone with linguistic training, you ought to understand that principle.

The point is the word is used as the prefix a- and the root theos are intended to mean together. It's used to describe someone who is not a theist.
You are basing this on purely historical grounds. On the face of it, you are engaging in an etymological fallacy. So far, you have not denied that etymological fallacy is a real phenomenon, but you insist on denying that your use of historical word etymology to argue for modern usage is an etymological fallacy. You have not tried to explain the difference between your argument and an etymological fallacy. All you have done is baldly deny that it is.

As far as Gricean maxims go, what I'm saying is that anyone who does not hold the belief that God exists is an atheist. I'm not sure what your point is with speech act theory.
I'll say it again. People in this thread have denied that the assertion "God does not exist" is essentially equivalent to the assertion "I believe that God does not exist." Grice's maxim of quality establishes them as equivalent. Every assertion entails belief by that maxim.

The bottom line is when considering who fits into the category of "atheists", all you have to consider is whether or not they hold the belief in God. If so, they don't fit. If not, they fit. I'm curious why you think someone who doesn't hold the belief in God shouldn't fit in the "atheist" category.
I think it so because we almost never use the word to describe people who do not have a "god" concept. People use atheism to describe the state of mind of people who know what gods are and who deny their existence, however weak their confidence is in that denial. This is why it is relevant to bring up the subject of infants in the discussion. If people went around calling babies atheists, then your definition would make sense. They do not, so your definition does not make sense.
 
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Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
Belief, by definition, is pretty much unique to every individual. No two will believe the same thing about anything, especially when it comes to theism. But the definition of theism only requires that one hold belief in something called "god," not what that particular belief might be.

Indeed, all theists believe that something called god exists. Very simple. Now, what is the equivalent belief for atheists. Should be an equally simple answer - assuming, of course, atheism is a belief.

If the atheist wants to take a stand in contrast to theism, she takes a stance that there is something called "god" that defines the theist in their theism. If she didn't believe that, she'd have no reason to go around calling herself atheist.

Theists also take the stance that there is something called "god" that defines the theist in their theism (well, at least in as much as atheists actually do this). This stance doesn't make someone an atheist.

In order for atheism to be a belief, it has to have something equivalent to the theist belief which defines theism.
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
The certainty is implied in the terms. If I’m doubting then I’m sceptical (tautology); like an unexpected surprise.

That's besides the point, you are certain that you are a skeptic.

Which insists belief, of self evidence of course.


Reading these words I guess?


:help:

The above certainly isn’t faith based, whereas in your case you have attributed to God particular qualities that, for example, he is a perfectly good and moral being who has an interest in mankind, which is what I meant by ‘I believe x to be true, and I believe x is true of God.’ There is hope and an emotional commitment in that.


This is completely false. I hold no "characterized" attributes to what is "God" is, the position of such a "God" would be defined by perspective of him, which theism clearly holds. The point is, that the existence of such a being is also defined by theism and atheism.

I can assure, a large majority of atheists hold strong belief in their "atheism".

'Not in the same manner' is an understatement in my view, because the theist wants to go beyond the world of experience.

That's impractical, I would go as far to question the creative origins of mathematics.
 
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Orias

Left Hand Path
No, I'm simply asking what belief defines atheism, if atheism is a belief. I'm being specific with the criteria for defining that belief, because many people seem to have a difficult time maintaining relevance if you don't spell it out for them.

I have yet to hear a single belief which fits the bill for defining atheism, as a whole, as a belief. I don't understand why this should be difficult, unless, of course, atheism isn't, in fact, a belief.
a·the·ism (
amacr.gif
prime.gif
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m)
n. 1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

For the 300th time.

There is following denominations that all insist a certain or absoulte conviction as to what atheism means, ranging from planted roots regardless of evidence, to following "certain" evidence of a hypotheically "proved" "God".
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
It might be a different matter to you, but it's what I'm asking about. All atheists might believe the earth revolves around the sun, but that belief doesn't actually make them atheists. It seems ridiculous to have to point this out, but apparently some people don't understand the distinction on their own.
But all atheists do believe that there are no gods. That is the single belief that characterizes them. Inherent in the concept of "atheist" is that the individual understands what a "god" is. If one lacks the concept, then the label is irrelevant. It is rather like calling a Catholic priest a "bachelor". A bachelor is nominally an unmarried man, but that unmarried man must really be considered eligible for marriage in order to qualify as a "bachelor". Atheists are nominally people who lack a belief in gods, but they really must understand what a god is and reject belief in its existence in order to qualify as an atheist.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
Theists also take the stance that there is something called "god" that defines the theist in their theism (well, at least in as much as atheists actually do this). This stance doesn't make someone an atheist.

In order for atheism to be a belief, it has to have something equivalent to the theist belief which defines theism.
:) That theists also take that stance about theists, or that mystics also take that stance about theists, or that ignostics or any other group also take that stance about theists --none of that matters to it being a definitive characteristic of atheism that the atheist puts themselves in contrast to it. Theists don't put themselves in contrast to it; mystics don't put them in contrast to it; ignostics don't put themselves in contrast to it. Each group has a unique relationship to it, but atheists put themselves in contrast to it.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
That's debatable :) --in fact, it's debatable that even if you believe in living gods, you believe in supernatural or unworldly beings.

But that's for another thread.

Not sure I'm reading you correctly, but by living gods I meant such as the late Emperor Hirohito, for example. (Seems contradictory to speak of a god in the past tense :))
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
a·the·ism (
amacr.gif
prime.gif
th
emacr.gif
-
ibreve.gif
z
lprime.gif
schwa.gif
m)
n. 1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.

For the 300th time.

There is following denominations that all insist a certain or absoulte conviction as to what atheism means, ranging from planted roots regardless of evidence, to following "certain" evidence of a hypotheically "proved" "God".

Sorry, I have no idea how to parse your sentence into something that makes sense to me.

And regardless of whatever dictionary definition one cherry-picks (assuming they get reduced to going that route), disbelief still isn't a belief. And, even if one does define it as such, it still doesn't accurately describe many atheists, if not most.

The statement "I don't believe god doesn't exist" doesn't apply to me. Cherry-picking dictionary definitions doesn't change this.

Now that you know this doesn't apply to all atheists, what belief defines atheists?
 

Orias

Left Hand Path
Sorry, I have no idea how to parse your sentence into something that makes sense to me.

And regardless of whatever dictionary definition one cherry-picks (assuming they get reduced to going that route), disbelief still isn't a belief. And, even if one does define it as such, it still doesn't accurately describe many atheists, if not most.

The statement "I don't believe god doesn't exist" doesn't apply to me. Cherry-picking dictionary definitions doesn't change this.

Now that you know this doesn't apply to all atheists, what belief defines atheists?

Oh I for sure know that it doesn't apply to all atheists. You should read some of the earlier posts, I don't feel like repeating myself everytime I reply to you.
 

Kilgore Trout

Misanthropic Humanist
:) That theists also take that stance about theists, or that mystics also take that stance about theists, or that ignostics or any other group also take that stance about theists --none of that matters to it being a definitive characteristic of atheism that the atheist puts themselves in contrast to it. Theists don't put themselves in contrast to it; mystics don't put them in contrast to it; ignostics don't put themselves in contrast to it. Each group has a unique relationship to it, but atheists put themselves in contrast to it.

Okay, assuming that this has anything to do with what actually makes people atheists in the real world, what would the belief actually be?
 
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