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Atheism: A belief?
- Thread starter Orias
- Start date
The tape could've been doctored.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
I'm relatively sure that you guys are wrong about your absolute convictions.
A Greedo guy, eh?
Let me relate a story.
Twenty years back, i was entrusted to measure hydrocarbon content in a widespread gas seepage that was leaking from every nook and corner of a village in Gujarat. We had dug pipes into the ground and flared the gas to avert danger. So, I was to collect gas from the top of the pipe for analysis. We were thinking how to accomplish the task as simply as possible. I suggested "Let us get a 'ghora' from the nearest processing centre, where I have seen a tall 'ghora', to reach the top of the pipe"
A partner of mine stood there with hung jaw and kept looking at me as if I was mad. We argued and argued for ten minutes. He finally said "It is the most mad idea". I asked him "Why is the idea mad?". He retorted "Simple. As we stand on the ghora, it will move away". Now, my jaws hung down. My ghora was a ladder. And my friend's ghora was horse.
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You are correct. Blame it on Penguin.:shout
To the question "Do you believe God exists?, atanu as an atheist will reply "No, I do not believe that God exists".
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So, you are agnostic atheist and not gnostic atheist.
(And now let us differ on these two terms for next 50 pages.)
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No argument..."agnostic atheist" works for me.So, you are agnostic atheist and not gnostic atheist.
(And now let us differ on these two terms for next 50 pages.)
But I never could get a grip on the word "gnostic".
Frank Merton
Active Member
Mental experiments are sometimes useful in helping clarify our thinking.
One such experiment is to imagine that one fine morning there appears Jesus Glorified in the Heavens, surrounded by hosts of angels, proclaiming the End of Days. What do I, as a committed atheist (persuaded by logical reasoning that no God exists) make of this?
Well, first things first, and survival comes first, so I get on my knees, etc. But I gotta tell you I am not persuaded; oh, for sure, whatever is behind this phenomenon is powerful -- so, for the present, at least, I do according to the formula -- but I quickly resolve that a huge fraud has been perpetuated. Indeed, no God is going to perform such circus stunts: only a fraud.
Frauds can be powerful, and easily persuade almost everyone, so I would probably keep my mouth shut until I could figure it out, and maybe I never would (people like me would be among the first lined up for execution so that the new order doesn't face opposition -- good evidence that it is not divine).
One such experiment is to imagine that one fine morning there appears Jesus Glorified in the Heavens, surrounded by hosts of angels, proclaiming the End of Days. What do I, as a committed atheist (persuaded by logical reasoning that no God exists) make of this?
Well, first things first, and survival comes first, so I get on my knees, etc. But I gotta tell you I am not persuaded; oh, for sure, whatever is behind this phenomenon is powerful -- so, for the present, at least, I do according to the formula -- but I quickly resolve that a huge fraud has been perpetuated. Indeed, no God is going to perform such circus stunts: only a fraud.
Frauds can be powerful, and easily persuade almost everyone, so I would probably keep my mouth shut until I could figure it out, and maybe I never would (people like me would be among the first lined up for execution so that the new order doesn't face opposition -- good evidence that it is not divine).
Its quite straightforward really. We dont need to quibble over dictionary definitions or fuss over grammatical terms to understand that unlike the theist an atheist simply does not believe in gods. That is the essence of it!
But if we want to explore theist and atheist beliefs further we see they are differentiated by the nature of the beliefs, which are not simply polar opposites. Theists dont merely believe that there are gods; they believe in them. So theyve gone further than mere hypothesising. Example: I personally subscribe to the Argument from Contingency and the Argument from Sufficient Reason that says there is or may be a necessarily existent cause of the universe. But from that conception it would be quite wrong to infer that I believe in a necessarily existent thing. It isnt a committed belief as faith and I award it no attributes, purpose, or metaphysical system but what is necessarily implied in the concept; and there is certainly no emotional investment. A belief that, in this context, is utterly different from a belief in, which is to say a belief as faith, distinguished by a profound commitment. My belief is that there are no gods, but I might be wrong in that. So I believe that there are no gods, while allowing that gods are logically possible. But when do we hear a theist say: I believe in God, but God might not exist. We dont! And that is because one cannot logically believe in something while believing that it might not exist?
But if we want to explore theist and atheist beliefs further we see they are differentiated by the nature of the beliefs, which are not simply polar opposites. Theists dont merely believe that there are gods; they believe in them. So theyve gone further than mere hypothesising. Example: I personally subscribe to the Argument from Contingency and the Argument from Sufficient Reason that says there is or may be a necessarily existent cause of the universe. But from that conception it would be quite wrong to infer that I believe in a necessarily existent thing. It isnt a committed belief as faith and I award it no attributes, purpose, or metaphysical system but what is necessarily implied in the concept; and there is certainly no emotional investment. A belief that, in this context, is utterly different from a belief in, which is to say a belief as faith, distinguished by a profound commitment. My belief is that there are no gods, but I might be wrong in that. So I believe that there are no gods, while allowing that gods are logically possible. But when do we hear a theist say: I believe in God, but God might not exist. We dont! And that is because one cannot logically believe in something while believing that it might not exist?
I have decided to initiate legal action against these dictionaries for misleading me. I need some fund.
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The question in OP does not require that. Essentially, you agree that though not exact opposite, these two types of -ism's have their belief systems.
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
Go outside on a clear night.....look up and say 'there is no God'.
You know the sound of truth when you hear it...right?
Go look in the mirror...and call yourself an accident.
Does that sound right?
Any chance you might have it all wrong?
Me too.
Frank Merton
Active Member
I try to be polite, but you really are an airhead.
What is worse, you are also arrogant, so that you can't see it.
Your thinking is so full of air I am astonished you are able to inhale.
Frank Merton
Active Member
You need to read the preface of a good dictionary some time, so you will see that they are not, and don't even try to be, the authority on what a word means. All dictionaries do is tell us how the word is generally used. If you are looking for subtleties of meaning and fine distinctions, get a good education and read widely.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the OP was that is posed a question: 'Atheism: a belief?' I'm sure I've made my position quite clear in the matter.
Essentially, you agree that though not exact opposite, these two types of -ism's have their belief systems.
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Actually, I don't agree with that. Theism doesn't require a necessary adherence to belief systems - and atheism most certainly doesn't.
The question in the OP is encapsulated in the last few sentences. Essentially, the world is this big lot of bits of information in which we've invested belief: we believe in the world. If atheism is a part of that world, it is something in which we've invested belief. Then the OP asks us to lighten up... or set him on fire. One of those.
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Thank you for guidance, Merton. So, I should not initiate any legal action?
Merriam-Webster OnLine
atheist: one who believes that there is no deity
Cambridge Dictionary of American English
atheist: someone who believes that God does not exist
Thanks
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