Atheism and arrogance

[Trailblazer]

Have you never seen the arrogance of religious people before?

I know that question was not directed at me, but I have seen it so I am answering.
The arrogance I have seen in some religious people made me want to find the kiosk so I could sign up for atheism.

Regarding a particular Baha'i Law which has not even been implemented by the UHJ yet, a Baha'i said:

"The one who does not follow this teaching does not understand his or her proper relationship to God,"

Imagine that, someone telling me what my "proper relationship" with God is or what it should be.
And please note that he was responding to me but he did not do directly.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's the theists that are making unwarranted claims.

Leastways claims they can never prove are true.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think that most of us atheists simply value logic and critical thinking more than we value religious faith.

I do not think it is an either/or. I think both can be present.

 

[Trailblazer]

You need to get out more.

Or read more posts on forums.

 

[Trailblazer]

Uh huh. Sure you are.

Why do you question that he is an atheist?

 

[Piculet]

I don't know how you can make this claim, when you yourself said -- again, I'm quoting you directly -- " I have not seen anyone who truly believes in one God and worships Him, being arrogant." Yet you describe yourself as just such a believer.

Arrogant

Arrogance

Look them up.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have not seen anyone who truly believes in one God and worships Him, being arrogant.

I have seen it.
I hate to admit it, because it reflects badly upon my religion, but arrogance is not about belief or lack thereof.

 

[Trailblazer]

How are the rest of us supposed to learn about Islam if solid Muslims don't post what they learned from Islam?
Tom

That's not what Islam is about. That's just one verse and one Muslim.
That'd be like quoting one verse from the NT verse and saying that is what Christianity is about.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Arrogant

Arrogance

Look them up.

I know what they mean -- probably better than you do. I've been word-smithing for 60 and more years. I have yet to write, on this forum or anywhere else, that I thought that believers were arrogant for having their beliefs -- that they thought they were better than someone else, or that they knew more than someone else, or were more likely to be correct than someone else. And yet, that is exactly what you are doing -- and I see you are still unwilling to admit it.

That's sad, student. One of life's most important lessons is to learn to accept responsibility for your own own words and actions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for posting this verse.

I might borrow it to show to my Christian friends.

I, for the most part, am on your team.

I am a believer, but I am on no team - I am for one and all, on the team of humanity.

Believers have valid points but atheists also have valid points. I am a believer because I believe God exists but I could not be a member of any religion that berates nonbelievers, and I thank God that is not the case.

"How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light." ('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)

"This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"
(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)

 

[Trailblazer]

Do you know that, basically, in Islam, atheists will go to hell.

I find that difficult to believe but if you have more than one verse to back it up......
So where do the believers who are not Muslim's go?

 

[Trailblazer]

So it matters that there's no description of God that would describe a real entity. If a sufficient description of God existed, that would give us an objective test to determine whether any real entity is God or not ─

I can give you a description of God but there is no objective test we can use to determine if God exists or not.

God is not anthropomorphic, and transcends all human limitations and forms, and is obviously beyond any human comprehension. That puts us in a tight spot for testing.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God forbade homosexuality, then there are no "homosexuals". There are only people who disobey God and engage in homosexuality. Just as there are people who disobey God and lie, cheat, steal, and kill.

A lot of the arrogance we see in "believers" comes from their using the sins of others to make themselves feel and appear the more virtuous. It's a kind of blatant hypocrisy that everyone else sees but the hypocrite. And this kind of religious egotism shows up A LOT in the behavior of the "true believers", who truly believe that they are closer to God, and more deserving of God's approval and favor. They like to make a show of their presumed superior righteousness by praying in public and putting up religious monuments and idols and preaching against sins that they don't commit (while never a peep is uttered about the sins that they DO commit), and so on. And other people see this arrogance, and self-centered foolishness, even though the "true believers"are blind to it.

Almost makes me want to be an atheist....
Instead I just try to be a better believer.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your inability to put yourself in the shoes of another person is a bit disturbing.

Ever since I was a child, I wanted to know what it would be like to be different, and I can remember being quote taken with the book "Black Like Me." That was back when blacks were still maligned in society, something that still exists today but is rapidly changing.

So, when I decided I would make another stab at trying to be a Baha'i and trying to make peace with God, and I first came to forums, after about a year on Planet Baha'i I decided to branch out, because I had not been into religion for most of my life and I did not know anything about Christianity or any other religions. So I spent some time on a Christian forum where I learned what NT and OT stood for. People still do not believe that I had not read one page of the Bible before I was 60 years old; i simply had no interest.

Then after a while on the Christian forum I decided to go to a forum that was comprised mostly of atheists because I wanted to know what atheists were like, and that became my primary forum for about three years. When I fist showed up I had the impression that all atheists were hedonist, but it did not take long before I realized I was dead wrong, and that most atheists care about social, political, and environmental issues, and they care about the state of the world, much more so than most believers, who believe that God has their backs. One of my first threads on that forum was entitled "Belief does not make you a good person."

But the point I wanted to make is that believers who do not even bother to get to know atheists and associate with them on a personal level as I did, making them my friends, will make assumptions about atheists and base their opinions upon what their scriptures say about nonbelievers. I find this rather sad, but if believers have no occasion to associate with nonbelievers, because they are so cloistered away with other believers, then they will never know what they are like.

Sadly, I think this applies to many Baha'is, not just to Christians and Muslims. I think that part of the reason for this lack of association is that on some level, perhaps subconscious, many believers cannot respond to the legitimate complaints that atheists have about God, so some believers just double down and attack atheists in self defense. Of course this is just my opinion, given psychology is my background and training.

 

[firedragon]

I've read a fair number of your posts.
I didn't expect any exchange at all. Thanks for not disappointing.
Tom

Ive read two of your posts just now, and as I said I think you are looking for rhetorical exchange obviously.

Ciao.

 

[Bear Wild]

Are atheists arrogant because they don't believe or do they not believe because they are arrogant?

I believe the latter is the correct view.

Qur'an 7:146 "Those who behave arrogantly on the earth in defiance of right - them will I turn away from My signs: Even if they see all the signs, they will not believe in them; and if they see the way of right conduct, they will not adopt it as the way; but if they see the way of error, that is the way they will adopt. For they have rejected our signs, and failed to take warning from them."

What an arrogant post. Claiming just because someone is atheist that they are arrogant. You could use a little humility. Sad that your religion does not teach that.

 

[Left Coast]

Ever since I was a child, I wanted to know what it would be like to be different, and I can remember being quote taken with the book "Black Like Me." That was back when blacks were still maligned in society, something that still exists today but is rapidly changing.

So, when I decided I would make another stab at trying to be a Baha'i and trying to make peace with God, and I first came to forums, after about a year on Planet Baha'i I decided to branch out, because I had not been into religion for most of my life and I did not know anything about Christianity or any other religions. So I spent some time on a Christian forum where I learned what NT and OT stood for. People still do not believe that I had not read one page of the Bible before I was 60 years old; i simply had no interest.

Then after a while on the Christian forum I decided to go to a forum that was comprised mostly of atheists because I wanted to know what atheists were like, and that became my primary forum for about three years. When I fist showed up I had the impression that all atheists were hedonist, but it did not take long before I realized I was dead wrong, and that most atheists care about social, political, and environmental issues, and they care about the state of the world, much more so than most believers, who believe that God has their backs. One of my first threads on that forum was entitled "Belief does not make you a good person."

But the point I wanted to make is that believers who do not even bother to get to know atheists and associate with them on a personal level as I did, making them my friends, will make assumptions about atheists and base their opinions upon what their scriptures say about nonbelievers. I find this rather sad, but if believers have no occasion to associate with nonbelievers, because they are so cloistered away with other believers, then they will never know what they are like.

Sadly, I think this applies to many Baha'is, not just to Christians and Muslims. I think that part of the reason for this lack of association is that on some level, perhaps subconscious, many believers cannot respond to the legitimate complaints that atheists have about God, so some believers just double down and attack atheists in self defense. Of course this is just my opinion, given psychology is my background and training.

Trail, as much as we have disagreed on some things over my time here, I have always found that you are refreshingly...human. I greatly appreciate your attempts to understand other worldviews and to challenge your own. We could all do more of that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trail, as much as we have disagreed on some things over my time here, I have always found that you are refreshingly...human. I greatly appreciate your attempts to understand other worldviews and to challenge your own. We could all do more of that.

Thanks. I have a worldview, but it is always in a state of flux, unlike most who share my religion, because God, as He is presented in my scriptures, does not seem to align with what that God is doing/not doing in the real world. I planned to start a thread about that today, but I got caught up answering posts so I did not have time... Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Heyo]

It's not my problem if apparently no one is willing to get past one thing

When everyone says they have perceived your message in one form, that doesn't make you question your communication skills?

“When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’" - Lewis Carroll

That doesn't appear arrogant to you?

 

[Mock Turtle]

Atheists don't get the message that there is such a thing as sin.

There are some bad people that do some bad things (being born gay is not one of them).

Accusing people who are born gay of being sinners is a bad thing done by bad, ignorant people.

"Sin" is an invention of the people who wrote and fostered religions. "Sin" is used by religious people to instill shame and remorse and dreading into the minds of the gullible. Seeing others as sinners leads to a false sense of self-righteousness.

Yes, one has to use the words that religions tend to use, even when we might not agree with any such definitions. I obviously don't subscribe to the definition - bad behaviour just being such, and of varying degrees - with homosexuality not being on this spectrum.