Atheism and arrogance

[PureX]

The advantages appear to be with the atheists. Not so much anti-homosexuality from them, as per many other issues, so I don't know where that came from. Atheists have to live with constructing their own reality - which is a harder task than getting it handed down to them, and one that might be just as wrong as any other.

No one is "handing theists their reality". Theism is a choice, determined by experience, just as atheism or agnosticism is a choice, determined by experience. The difference is that theism is the choice to trust in an extraordinary possibility, while atheism is the choice to reject that extraordinary possibility simply because it is extraordinary. Neither choice is more "difficult" than the other to make. The basic difference that I see is that one choice expands the realm of what is possible while the other choice constricts it, unnecessarily.

 

[Vinayaka]

"You're the arrogant one."
"No, you're the arrogant one, and I know it."
"No, it is you, because I know that you don't know."
"Oh yeah! Don't be so stupid."
"You're the one being stupid."

... blah blah blah

 

[Mock Turtle]

No one is "handing theists their reality". Theism is a choice, determined by experience, just as atheism or agnosticism is a choice, determined by experience. The difference is that theism is the choice to trust in an extraordinary possibility, while atheism is the choice to reject that extraordinary possibility simply because it is extraordinary. Neither choice is more "difficult" than the other to make. The basic difference that I see is that one choice expands the realm of what is possible while the other choice constricts it, unnecessarily.

Yes, but atheists don't get the message that homosexuality and all the rest is a sin - so where is the advantage in that!

 

[PureX]

How are you defining arrogant? Atheists simply don't believe in a claim without evidence.

Well, that does presuppose that:

1. such evidence would have to exist, and
2. that you, the atheist, is both willing and able to recognize that evidence for what it is.

There is quite a bit of arrogance involved in these presumptions, don't you think?

 

[PureX]

Yes, but atheists don't get the message that homosexuality and all the rest is a sin - so where is the advantage in that!

This is a religious issue, not a theistic issue. Religion is the actual PRACTICE of a theological proposition, and as with all human practices, they will inevitably be rife with ignorance, bigotry, ego, greed, and so on. And atheists are just a guilty of these shortcomings as anyone else, is.

 

[HonestJoe]

I have, but I have been thinking it could be caused by their lack of belief in one God. I have seen those who worship Jesus as God, being arrogant. I have seen those who give divinity to human beings, being arrogant. I have seen the superstitious being arrogant. I have not seen anyone who truly believes in one God and worships Him, being arrogant.

So you're saying you're better than all of those other people because they're so arrogant?

 

[Mock Turtle]

This is a religious issue, not a theistic issue. Religion is the actual PRACTICE of a theological proposition, and as with all human practices, they will inevitably be rife with ignorance, bigotry, ego, greed, and so on.

But the problem is that it is locked into their teaching - from some particular text, which might have some relevance or not - and one only has to look at where the anti-homosexuality sentiment comes from - religious teaching or countries like Russia and other East-Europeans ones - all a bit backward in their development. And much the same could be said for other issues.

 

[PureX]

But the problem is that it is locked into their teaching - from some particular text, which might have some relevance or not - and one only has to look at where the anti-homosexuality sentiment comes from - religious teaching or countries like Russia and other East-Europeans ones - all a bit backward in their development. And much the same could be said for other issues.

Again, this is a religious problem, not a theistic problem. We will find the same problems with any human engagement; like politics, or commerce, or socializing, or even in science. We humans are a selfish, hypocritical, dishonest, violent bunch of animals. And that remains true whether we choose to trust in the existence of God, or not.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Again, this is a religious problem, not a theistic problem. We will find the same problems with any human engagement, like politics, or commerce, or socializing, or even in science. We humans are a selfish, hypocritical, dishonest, violent bunch of animals. And that remains true whether we choose to trust in the existence of God, or not.

As I've always commented, I've no issues with what anyone believes concerning God or anything else being spiritual. It's the religions that cause the problems - in the teaching and dogma, and presumably based on whatever text is relevant. And is why we have such as the OP - his views on homosexuality and towards atheists. That doesn't come out of thin air.

 

[Piculet]

Try a mirror...

That doesn't make any sense. Arrogance isn't dependent on looks.

The OP is not ill-informed.
He obviously understands Islam very well.
Tom

I'm only a student, please.

Atheists have to live with constructing their own reality - which is a harder task than getting it handed down to them,

There's actually significant arguments against that in Islam. People reject religion because they want to do what they want.

As per many, you are the one displaying arrogance in having your particular belief to the exclusion of any other possibility.

You really claim belief in one thing is, in itself, arrogance? Then you don't have any belief in anything, i assume?

you are hardly a good representative of Islam

I'm curious — why?

Why single out atheists?

If I don't single out something it will be a confusing discussion.

 

[Valjean]

Yes, but atheists don't get the message that homosexuality and all the rest is a sin - so where is the advantage in that!

Well, there are all sorts of contradictory messages from a thousand different sources -- religious and secular. We can't accept them all. How are we to choose if not by critical analysis?

How is it an advantage to accept an unsupported claim that homosexuality is a sin?

 

[Mock Turtle]

I'm only a student, please.

That explains a lot.

"Atheists have to live with constructing their own reality - which is a harder task than getting it handed down to them,"

There's actually significant arguments against that in Islam. People reject religion because they want to do what they want.

No, that isn't the reason, so perhaps the Islamic explanation is wrong. They just don't believe in any gods, hence they are left with no other alternative.

"As per many, you are the one displaying arrogance in having your particular belief to the exclusion of any other possibility."

You really claim belief in one thing is, in itself, arrogance? Then you don't have any belief in anything, i assume?

Assuming it is correct (and all the rest are wrong) is the arrogance, not the belief in itself.

"you are hardly a good representative of Islam"

I'm curious — why?

You should study the responses you have gotten. That might inform - and coming not just from any atheists. You come across as extremely arrogant - your way is correct (as per your religious doctrine) and all the rest are wrong.

 

[Onoma]

Are atheists arrogant because they don't believe or do they not believe because they are arrogant?

Isn't that a false dichotomy ?

 

[PureX]

As I've always commented, I've no issues with what anyone believes concerning God or anything else being spiritual. It's the religions that cause the problems - in the teaching and dogma, and presumably based on whatever text is relevant. And is why we have such as the OP - his views on homosexuality and towards atheists. That doesn't come out of thin air.

People don't accept any "religious teachings" that they don't want to believe are true. Just as they don't accept any "political teaching" that they don't want to believe are true. Or just as they don't accept "commercial teaching" that they don't already want to believe to be true. And so on.

Your problem is not with the existence of God, or even with religion. It's with the humans engaged in these ideas and practices. It's humans that make religion absurd, biased, and hateful, not the other way around.

But not all humans are doing that. In fact, most humans that engage in religious practices are trying to do just the opposite of that. They are trying to separate themselves from those kinds of animal shortcomings. They want to overcome them. But you're ignoring all those theists and focusing only on the ones that want to use their religion as a way to express those animal shortcomings. Religions are not our directors, they are the tools we use to fulfill our own intended natures. The "gods" are representations and reflections of who we are, and who we think we want to become. And our religions are how we try to achieve that.

 

[columbus]

The OP is not ill-informed.
He obviously understands Islam very well.
Tom

I'm only a student, please.

Feel free to make it clear that your assertions aren't Islamic, they're just your "student" opinions. Feel free to make it clear that you don't understand Islam, you're a "student".

So far you haven't. So far, you've insisted that your opinions are from God.
Tom

 

[Mock Turtle]

Well, there are all sorts of contradictory messages from a thousand different sources -- religious and secular. We can't accept them all. How are we to choose if not by critical analysis?

How is it an advantage to accept an unsupported claim that homosexuality is a sin?

As I mentioned in another post, the antagonisms tend to come from either religious teaching or the more backward countries. Most of the liberal Western democracies have gotten over the issues they once had with homosexuality and related issues. How are we to change the religious attitudes when it is written in their texts?

 

[Mock Turtle]

People don't accept any "religious teachings" that they don't want to believe are true. Just as they don't accept any "political teaching" that they don't want to believe are true. Or just as they don't accept "commercial teaching" that they don't already want to believe to be true. And so on.

Your problem is not with the existence of God, or even with religion. It's with the humans engaged in these ideas and practices. It's humans that make religion absurd, biased, and hateful, not the other way around.

But not all humans are doing that. In fact, most humans that engage in religious practices are trying to do just the opposite of that. They are trying to separate themselves from those kinds of animal shortcomings. They want to overcome them. But you're ignoring all those theists and focusing only on the ones that want to use their religion as a way to express those animal shortcomings. Religions are not our directors, they are the tools we use to fulfill our own intended natures. The "gods" are representations and reflections of who we are, and who we think we want to become. And our religions are how we try to achieve that.

But it's still there in the texts. What kind of change is going to alter that. Oh, they made a mistake so long ago.

And it's humans who make religions by the way.

 

[Valjean]

{Valjean said: ↑
How are you defining arrogant? Atheists simply don't believe in a claim without evidence.}

Well, that does presuppose that:

1. such evidence would have to exist, and
2. that you, the atheist, is both willing and able to recognize that evidence for what it is.

There is quite a bit of arrogance involved in these presumptions, don't you think?

Not following. How are you getting this out of a claim that atheists don't believe in things without evidence?

This is a religious issue, not a theistic issue. Religion is the actual PRACTICE of a theological proposition, and as with all human practices, they will inevitably be rife with ignorance, bigotry, ego, greed, and so on. And atheists are just a guilty of these shortcomings as anyone else, is.

How do ignorance, bigotry, ego, greed, and so on apply to atheists?
You probably don't believe in unicorns. You're an a-unicornist. Does that position make you ignorant, bigoted, egotistic or greedy?

 

[sun rise]

arrogance: the belief that *I alone* know the truth and anyone who does not agree is of course an idiot.

In other words, fanatics are arrogant.

 

[Valjean]

As I mentioned in another post, the antagonisms tend to come from either religious teaching or the more backward countries. Most of the liberal Western democracies have gotten over the issues they once had with homosexuality and related issues. How are we to change the religious attitudes when it is written in their texts?

Discredit their texts?
Discredit their faith in their text of choice?
Point out that had they been born in a different place they'd have embraced a different religious text?
Point out that their faith is not a product of reason or evidence, but culture.?