Atheism and the Big Bang

[Audie]

And mocking what deserves to be mocked is not a bad thing.

Exactly right. Teasing etc has a very real social function.
It is a blunt tool, often badly misused, but, that does not
mean it should never be used.

People act as kind of outriggers for the others around them.
Keep each other from tipping over too far!

If nobody ever teased you or otherwise commented on
overly eccentric behaviour, then what?

Some of our posters here have drifted WAY too far from the shore!

 

[BilliardsBall]

"I don't know" has never been a valid excuse to claim that a god exists. You are the one making the leap.

Not wanting to be rude or tit-for-tat here, but "I don't know" is hardly an excuse for the entire universe of matter and energy+, either.

 

[BilliardsBall]

People tend to see their own faults in others.
Any religious person is deeply invested in magical thinking.
It is a false assumption that it means others are.

Interesting, so most humans, ever, are deeply invested in magical thinking. Now there's some magical thinking, I think.

Welcome to the asylum! Glad you're here with us crazies, in the magical time of 2018 Anno Domini!

 

[BilliardsBall]

you can prove the Bible wrong, but you cannot do so, I believe because you in spiritual thrall to a different master than I

Speaking of canards, "prove the bible wrong" is among
the most ridiculous.

Some of the things it says are quite obviously true.
There really is an Egypty; there are goats, and camels.
Fish, too.

Some of the things in it are quite obviously not true.

But maybe not so obvious, for lo, you guys all
have ways to get out of it.

The bible is not wrong describing a world wide flood
because it was local, or because it was allegoricall
Or it is about the milky way.

Or, if it is literal, and all the evidence in the universe turns against it, well, you guys just call SEDI!
Same Evidence, Different Interpretation!

God says, Man says!

Nothing could be proved to the satisfaction of a "believer" if it is not to their liking. Fortunately, others have been able to move past the first century.

because you in spiritual thrall to a different master than I

So you'd be pretty much a believer in the WWCOSSTSTTOTB? (world wide conspiracy of satanic scientists to suppress the truth of the bible)

There is no worldwide conspiracy of scientists, however, since on another post you claim that most persons, since they believe in God, are deeply invested in magical thinking, it would be a safe assumption, based on your own words, to presume scientists also take leaps of faith. This explains some of the differences in data interpretation, say, between creationists and secularists, however, reputable scientists don't claim to disprove Jesus or any deity via science--and countless scientists believe in God.

Are you a scientist, rigorously trained in non-biased, dispassionate thought, or are you among the many you accuse of being deeply invested in magical thinking?

 

[Audie]

Interesting, so most humans, ever, are deeply invested in magical thinking. Now there's some magical thinking, I think.

Welcome to the asylum! Glad you're here with us crazies, in the magical time of 2018 Anno Domini!

As noted before, you continue to project your faults onto
others.

Evidently you do not actually even know what magical thinking is. It might help you to understand yourself if you
did.

wiki says

In religion, folk religion, and superstitious beliefs, the posited causality is between religious ritual, prayer, sacrifice, or the observance of a taboo, and an expected benefit or recompense. The use of a lucky item or ritual, for example, is assumed to increase the probability that one will perform at a level so that one can achieve a desired goal or outcome.[2]

That. my friend, is exactly typical of most people alive today
(who, as you "theists" are so proud to say,mostly are
religious)

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not wanting to be rude or tit-for-tat here, but "I don't know" is hardly an excuse for the entire universe of matter and energy+, either.

We can observe the universe. It does not need an excuse.

 

[Audie]

There is no worldwide conspiracy of scientists, however, since on another post you claim that most persons, since they believe in God, are deeply invested in magical thinking, it would be a safe assumption, based on your own words, to presume scientists also take leaps of faith. This explains some of the differences in data interpretation, say, between creationists and secularists, however, reputable scientists don't claim to disprove Jesus or any deity via science--and countless scientists believe in God.

Are you a scientist, rigorously trained in non-biased, dispassionate thought, or are you among the many you accuse of being deeply invested in magical thinking?

It is the opposite of a safe assumption.
No matter how you try to drag others down into
the hole you are in, it is still nothing but your
very unsophisticated projection.

Here is a basic concept:

Religion is a culture of faith

Science is a culture of doubt.

Now, pure and complete objectiveism
is not possible to achieve.

A scientist, Christian, or whatever sort,
knows this, and applies it to his work.

Hard as it is scientists must do their utmost, do their due
diligence, understand that they are they
themselves are the easiest persons to fool.

They look for all the ways they could be
wrong and test them rigorously.

They are the good researchers. Others may
fall short.

But objectivity is a highest value.

Religion as a culture of faith does the exact
opposite. Hold fast the faith, no matter
the adversity, no matter the evidence.

That is a highest virtue, in religion.

eta, I am in fact rigorously trained in
objective thinking, tho I am not a scientist.

But seriously, must you try to drag others
into your hole?

And I did notice your evasion of most of what I said in the
post you responded to.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Now you are spinning strawman, and it funny how you are trying to twist everything when I don’t believe in magic or supernatural but you do which you accuse me of, but you are the one who actually believe in supernatural, like god, miracles and magic.

The level of your dishonesty is truly appalling.

And btw, I have said we know thing before the Planck Epoch, and second, I still haven’t accepted the Multiverse model, because it is still theoretical, still hypothetical and still untestable. Multiverse is still a hypothesis, not a scientific theory.

Only a dishonest person would bring up the Multiverse strawman, when I have accepted this cosmology.

I'm trying to understand what you wrote, so if I get it wrong, it would be kind of you to correct me below, without saying I lie. I find the leaps of faith made by skeptics so great, I need not lie!

1. There was nothing here.
2. Then, a singularity was here.
3. Then, everything was here.
4. There is no other universe/dimension/multiverse so what made the singularity is before linear time/light, and is eternal.
5. The universe is eternal, therefore, despite the conservation of mass and energy.

Thanks.

 

[Audie]

I'm trying to understand what you wrote, so if I get it wrong, it would be kind of you to correct me below, without saying I lie. I find the leaps of faith made by skeptics so great, I need not lie!

1. There was nothing here.
2. Then, a singularity was here.
3. Then, everything was here.
4. There is no other universe/dimension/multiverse so what made the singularity is before linear time/light, and is eternal.
5. The universe is eternal, therefore, despite the conservation of mass and energy.

Thanks.

Looks to me like you got all of that wrong, but then.
I am not a BB-ist.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Once again you demonstrate an inability to comprehend plain English.

I did not say the bible predicted anything about the Mormons and the JW's.

I said the Mormons and JW's stated their views would be mocked.

You tried to make the claim that bible writers were prescient because they predicted bible stories would be mocked.

I showed that all new cults realize they will be mocked, It's not about prescience, it's nothing special, it's just common sense.

Ah, that's different, thanks for the clarification. Even the OT predicted:

1. Jews will be scattered from Israel
2. They will be persecuted in EVERY land they flee to
3. They will come back to their own land, in what we call May 1948 AD

Worked out better than cultic predictions, you must agree.

PS. Provocative statements like "Once again you demonstrate an inability to comprehend plain English," are proof the Bible is ALSO right that you would behave angrily. If you would calm down and be reasonable, you would DISPROVE the Bible in my eyes. Now's your chance to win my soul for skepticism! Don't blow it!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Silly book:

Every "kind" of animal was placed on a wooden boat. The wooden boat and its occupants survived 40 days and 40 nights of the worst storm imaginable. After coming ashore on a mountain, the "kinds" of animals developed into millions of species and got to farthest reaches of the planet in less than 4000 years.​

Silly book!


God, as the Holy Ghost, raped a young virgin and impregnated her.

One can either believe God is a rapist or dismiss it as a silly story in a silly book? My choice was clear.

Not to put words in your mouth, but:

1. You don't believe in the rapid speciation/specialization that all modern evolutionary biologists believe

2. You haven't studied the stability of the largest wood ships built in the modern era, nor have calculated whether such a wooden boat would be destroyed by rain

3. Everyone who is pregnant is raped, Mary was unwilling, like all women of her day, to bear the Messiah of Israel, and God, who Created the universe, was somehow required to have a "spirit penis" to forcibly rape Mary to give her a child

 

[BilliardsBall]

Not knowing the origin of the universe is not a shortcoming of the Big Bang theory.



I don't know what happened before our universe began, and I don't know how it originated. Why does that position require faith?

I never said the BB theory is refuted because we don't know what happened before the universe came.

No faith is required to know or believe what happened before our universe began, except that:

1. You have a problem of infinite regression
2. The Steady State theory is rejected not only because of BB knowledge, but because of thermodynamics
3. Thermodynamics and conservation speak strongly against an eternal universe
4. You still have a problem of infinite regression

We have a great book, including infinite love, free gifts, and predictive prophecy, that alleviate some of this burden, requiring only the faith of a child to be saved

 

[ecco]

Not wanting to be rude or tit-for-tat here, but "I don't know" is hardly an excuse for the entire universe of matter and energy+, either.

"I don't know" is a display of honesty.

Throughout the history of man, people have said "GodDidIt" when the honest answer was "I don't know".

Many people prefer BS to "I don't know". It seems that includes you.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

1. You have a problem of infinite regression

Wouldn't all explanations, even the most mundane, suffer from the same problem? If we try to explain how circulating thunderstorms produce lightning does this explanation also suffer from infinite regression because we have to explain the origin of the Earth, the origin of the stuff that made the Earth, and then the origin of the universe.

2. The Steady State theory is rejected not only because of BB knowledge, but because of thermodynamics

I would agree. A non-expanding or non-contracting universe is nearly impossible because it would take a perfectly balanced universe. Then you add on Olber's paradox, the need for constant creation of new matter, and other problems and you have every reason to suspect that the Steady State theory is wrong.

Can you also tell us what you meant by this leap of faith?

"It is you and not I who is making a leap of FAITH in telling me what "probably happened before Planck time."--BilliardsBall

 

[ecco]

Interesting, so most humans, ever, are deeply invested in magical thinking.

I would refer to it as superstitious thinking.
But, sadly, yes.

Don't you agree that faith in Atlas and Athena involved magical (superstitious) thinking?

 

[Audie]

"I don't know" is a display of honesty.

Throughout the history of man, people have said "GodDidIt" when the honest answer was "I don't know".

Many people prefer BS to "I don't know". It seems that includes you.

"Barely an excuse"? It is no excuse, at all.
As you said.

It is a breath of fresh air to hear someone say it!

For preference for BS, also see "politician" and their
sycophants.

 

[Audie]

I would refer to it as superstitious thinking.
But, sadly, yes.

Don't you agree that faith in Atlas and Athena involved magical (superstitious) thinking?

You might, as I suggested to the round yellow one, look up "magical thinking"

 

[ecco]

Even the OT predicted:

1. Jews will be scattered from Israel
2. They will be persecuted in EVERY land they flee to
3. They will come back to their own land...

So, Jews wrote that they would be persecuted. That wasn't prescience, that was an acknowledgement of their own history.
So, Jews wrote that they would someday return to their holy land. That wasn't prescience, that was a hope and a dream. Kinda like M. L. King's "I have a dream.."

...in what we call May 1948 AD

Please show where 1948 is included in the prophecies.

 

[ecco]

PS. Provocative statements like "Once again you demonstrate an inability to comprehend plain English," are proof the Bible is ALSO right that you would behave angrily. If you would calm down and be reasonable, you would DISPROVE the Bible in my eyes.

I am very calm and reasonable. I am also rational enough to know that I, nor anyone else, could ever disprove the the bible in your eyes. I cannot overcome years of indoctrination.

Now's your chance to win my soul for skepticism! Don't blow it!

I have no interest in winning your non-existent soul.

You abandoned skepticism when you adopted GodDidIt.

 

[ecco]

Not to put words in your mouth, but:

1. You don't believe in the rapid speciation/specialization that all modern evolutionary biologists believe

Please show a scientist or a scientific paper that states that rapid speciation/specialization can account for the diversity of species in 4000 years.

Please show a scientist or a scientific paper that states that kangaroos didn't exist in Australia 4000 years ago.

2. You haven't studied the stability of the largest wood ships built in the modern era, nor have calculated whether such a wooden boat would be destroyed by rain

Rain? I guess you don't realize that 40 days/nights of rain would have caused horrendous storms with accompanying winds and huge waves.

The Atlantic and the Gulf are littered with wooden ships that could not survive even comparatively minor local storms.

3. Everyone who is pregnant is raped, ...

Dumb and Dumber.

Mary was unwilling, like all women of her day, to bear the Messiah of Israel, and God, who Created the universe, was somehow required to have a "spirit penis" to forcibly rape Mary to give her a child

That's typical of the morality of your god. Can't find a willing woman - I'll just rape one.

What's sad is that people like you really believe this crap and then try to preach Good Christian Morals.